Response from wotc: Kensi signature weapons break VoPoverty

[Zimri]

Right, so what bearing do archers and their arrows have on a discussion about the Vow of Poverty? You can have a crossbowman with VoP, and with Rapid Reload he would be a viable character. But he couldn't enhance his crossbow, with or without being a Kensai.

But see you "possess" a crossbow it is an item. It is something outside of yourself that you own. I wouldn't have an issue at all with Darrin saying "no quarterstaff or other weapon can be imbued without breaking the VoP because it becomes a magical item.

Saying unarmed strike is disallowed as a signature weapon for a ascetic monk/kensai is the same as saying you can't have bless, GMW, or well anything that gives any kind of bonus to combat cast on you because it makes your unarmed strike magical. (yes I am aware ascetics can have spells cast on them but if those spells make your weapon better they break the same "intent" of the class that signature weapon does.)

Heck since the monk's whole body is considered her weapon any spell that does anything but heal her should break VoP by that logic since it enhances her body which is her weapon.

 

[Zimri]

double post sorry

 

[James McMurray]

Will, I'd charge slightly more than 2x. An item that is slotless can still be stolen or destroyed, whereas a blessing (assuming its permanent and not destroyed with the first dispel magic) is a much safer proposition.

Zimri: I understand your logic, and from a strictly rules-based point of view I agree with it. As I said, my only issue with VoP + Kensei is balance. VoP was created with the assumption that you would never have access to weapon enhancements such as Flaming, Force, Ghost Touch, Paralyzing, Enfeebling, etc. It also is not fair to allow monks and druids to gain the benefits of magic items while quarterstaff using paladins and crossbow using fighters can't have those same benefits.

 

[Pax]

Right, so what bearing do archers and their arrows have on a discussion about the Vow of Poverty?

Your've pointed out how the Kensai with Vow of Poverty can get +9 in special abilities with his signature weapon, and still have a +5 enhancement to his attack. In other words, you've pointed out how the ascetic kensai would have +4 of special abilities "for free".

And I pointed out that, with Greater Magic Weapon, any standard character (kensai or not) can do the same thing.

You can have a crossbowman with VoP, and with Rapid Reload he would be a viable character. But he couldn't enhance his crossbow, with or without being a Kensai.

Only because the Kensai would have to start with a Masterwork crossbow, and the masterwork crossbow - before being imbued - would violate the Vow.

Why should a monk / kensai be able to amass more power than an archer / kensai, or quaterstaff using kensai?

Because, of the three options, the archer and staff-wielder are suboptimal applications of the class/vow combination, that's why.

By the logic used by Darrin, an ascetic half-dragon fighter/kensai can imbue his claws, without violating their vow (because they don't have a class ability that describes their claws as "counting" as both natural and manufactured for thepurposes of certain spells and related effects). Why should a non-monk get BETTER benefits with essentially unarmed attacks, than a mok does?

The same of course would apply to a druid with VoP enhancing his wildshape natrual weapons, or a half-dragon, or any of the other many possibiliities besides just the monk. All it does is make one of the best fits for VoP even better.

And what precisely is wrong with finding an optimised way to apply a given feat and/or class?

An druid/kensai gives up a lot of his druidic "Schtick" (including wildshaping ability) to get those kensai levels.

A half-dragon fighter doesn't get all the goodies - like an eventually MUCH better hand to hand damage rating - that a pure monk gets.

And that's true, with or without the Vow of Poverty.

Stop comparing an Ascetic Kensai to a non-kensai. Compare ascetic kensai to NON-ascetic kensai.

They are even more valuable to a VoP monk, who must otherwise expect to be eaten alive by DR.

Not really. A pure VoP Monk will only have to truly worry about material-based DR, and getting levels of Kensai won't change that. All the remedies that a non-ascetic monk would have to pursue, are the same things the ascetic monk wouldhave to pursue. And they generally involve turning to the friendly spellcaster next to them, and asking icely for a bit of a helping hand.

So you too think that Kensai + VoP is unbalanced and are seeking an alternative? Cool. Your version is apparently farther from the designer's view of how the VoP should work than mine is, but if it works for your games, that's all that matters.

Consider, that I happen to find greatermagci weapon applied to extant magic weapons to be a cheap shot, too. And rather than outright FORBID something, I prefer to try and find ways to FIX things - as you should well know, having co-GMed with me online for over a year now.

The point is, I find an ascetic Kensai no more unbalanced than anyone with access - direct or indirect - to greater magic weapon. I ight so limit the ascetic kensai. Probably I'd just shrug, say "no worse than GMW on a +1 vorpal brilliant energy scimitar", and leave well enough alone - without voiding the ascetic kensai's Vow.

I had missed that bit about Metalline weapons (that's what happens when I post from work). Butthat just means that a VoP monk is really hampered by DR. IIRC Kensai would at least allow him to get around DR x/silver (with the True Silver enhancement from Ghostwalk).

I wouldn't allow that in a nonmetal weapon, either - as the enhancemetn specifically says it involves working actual silver into the weapon after the fact. Since it retains it's own material properties,and only penetrates DR based on silver, it's a +1 enhancement, rather than a material construction cost.

But the concept is the same. And veins of silver forged directly into one's skin, tends to be detrimental to one's health ...

VoP was created with the assumption that you would never have access to weapon enhancements such as Flaming, Force, Ghost Touch, Paralyzing, Enfeebling, etc.

Bull.

Ascetic monk's Cleric friend casts "weapon of energy" on the monk's fists, granting him one of [flaming / frost / screaming / acidic / shocking]. The cleric then casts weapon of impact, and doubles the monk's threat range, too.

Then the ascetic monk drinks the potion of Ghostform thathis Master Alchemist friend just handed to him (yes, ascetics can drink potions someone gives them TO drink), becoming incorporeal (and thus losing any miss% against incorporeal foes).

Spells can do it, quite handily in fact. So why is it so horrible andunbalanced if the character, instead of cajoling his friends for their resources, spends his OWN levels, feats, and experience points to gain those benefits ... ?

 

[Celtavian]

re

Celt can you explain why tatooed monk is allowed then ?

No, I cannot. I do not have much experience with the Tatooed Monk. If it were also to grant a magic weapon to the body for a monk with VoP I am liable to disallow it as well. I am wary of VoP. The feat looks over-powered at times, probably because I play in a fairly low-powered magic campaign. There are alot of magic items, but most of them are minor or midrange in power. The powers granted by VoP are often more than what a character of equivalent level would own in my campaigns.

 

[Zimri]

Wel lets see the description starts off with "All tatoos are magical and the abilities they bestow are supernatural."

So right off the bat you are getting something added to you that you didn't have that is magical.

Some of the effects are :

Raise constitution, dex,wisdom, charisma ; If that isn't improving your body I dunno what is and the monks body IS his weapon.

Alter self; Changing the form and composition of her body which again IS her weapon
Damage reduction
Fire breath
Smite foe

No need to eat sleep or drink (which gets you around the "only allowed to carry enough rations for 1 day limitation of VoPoverty)

A contact poison instead of stunning fist
+1/ +1d6 on unarmed attacks
Haste

Yet according to the person that wrote VoP none of that voids your vow but being able to hit a shadow or a phantasm does *shrug*

 

[James McMurray]

Your've pointed out how the Kensai with Vow of Poverty can get +9 in special abilities with his signature weapon, and still have a +5 enhancement to his attack. In other words, you've pointed out how the ascetic kensai would have +4 of special abilities "for free".

And I pointed out that, with Greater Magic Weapon, any standard character (kensai or not) can do the same thing.

Which doesn't really matter, because before the Kensai a VoP character could not do that. VoP was not designed with the idea that +9 worth of weapon abilities would be available to the character.

Because, of the three options, the archer and staff-wielder are suboptimal applications of the class/vow combination, that's why.

So? That to me means that the VoP druid and monk need to be held back, rather than making the other options for VoP even less viable.

By the logic used by Darrin, an ascetic half-dragon fighter/kensai can imbue his claws, without violating their vow (because they don't have a class ability that describes their claws as "counting" as both natural and manufactured for thepurposes of certain spells and related effects). Why should a non-monk get BETTER benefits with essentially unarmed attacks, than a mok does?

I never said they should. I stated my reasoning, pointed out that I know there are huge holes in it, and finished with the statement that it was just a rationalization for something that I view as a necessary balance mechanism. I wouldn't let any VoP character benefit from the Kensai's weapon enhancement abilties, monk, druid, half-dragon, or regular fighter with improved unarmed strike.

And what precisely is wrong with finding an optimised way to apply a given feat and/or class?

The fact that it makes the less optimal varieties of VoP even more worthless.

Stop comparing an Ascetic Kensai to a non-kensai. Compare ascetic kensai to NON-ascetic kensai.

1) You don't have the authority to give me any orders.
2) Its incredibly rude to try.

My comparisons are equally valid. the Kensai class was not designed to take the VoP into account. The VoP was not designed to take the kensai class into account. The two together make for a stronger character than the original VoP was intended to produce. The designer of the VoP has stated that the intention of the feat disallows Kensai. All of these points tell me that VoP and Kensai shouldn't mix.

As I said before, if it works for you in your game, that's great.

Not really. A pure VoP Monk will only have to truly worry about material-based DR, and getting levels of Kensai won't change that. All the remedies that a non-ascetic monk would have to pursue, are the same things the ascetic monk wouldhave to pursue. And they generally involve turning to the friendly spellcaster next to them, and asking icely for a bit of a helping hand.

An non-ascetic monk could get a necklace of natural weapons for sure striking. An ascetic monk cannot. If the ascetic monk isn't adventuring with a partially neutral cleric, there is at least 1 alignment DR he cannot bypass, possibly two.

Consider, that I happen to find greatermagci weapon applied to extant magic weapons to be a cheap shot, too. And rather than outright FORBID something, I prefer to try and find ways to FIX things - as you should well know, having co-GMed with me online for over a year now.

The point is, I find an ascetic Kensai no more unbalanced than anyone with access - direct or indirect - to greater magic weapon. I ight so limit the ascetic kensai. Probably I'd just shrug, say "no worse than GMW on a +1 vorpal brilliant energy scimitar", and leave well enough alone - without voiding the ascetic kensai's Vow.

And as I've repeatedly said, if that works for your groups that's great. I don't even know why we're arguing about this. I prefer to say "the feat and class are diametrically opposed to one another, don't bother." You would rather say "go for it, and maybe we'll limit it somehow." Two equally valid approaches in their own environments.

But the concept is the same. And veins of silver forged directly into one's skin, tends to be detrimental to one's health ...

One would generally say the same thing about a mithral arm being attached in a world without surgeons. But oddly enough, its a magical world, and strange things happen.

Bull.

Ascetic monk's Cleric friend casts "weapon of energy" on the monk's fists, granting him one of [flaming / frost / screaming / acidic / shocking]. The cleric then casts weapon of impact, and doubles the monk's threat range, too.

Then the ascetic monk drinks the potion of Ghostform thathis Master Alchemist friend just handed to him (yes, ascetics can drink potions someone gives them TO drink), becoming incorporeal (and thus losing any miss% against incorporeal foes).

Spells can do it, quite handily in fact. So why is it so horrible andunbalanced if the character, instead of cajoling his friends for their resources, spends his OWN levels, feats, and experience points to gain those benefits ... ?

1) Don't get snippy. We can have this conversation without accusing the others' ideas of being "bull." Let's both try to live up to your screenname and keep this civil please.

2) Weapon of Energy and Weapon of Impact are not core, and were likely not part of the playtesting process. Even if they were they require party resources, and would frequently require in-battle actions to cast, as opposed to being always on enhancements.

3) Ghost form cannot be made into a potion. I've pointed this rule out to you several times in the past.

Zimri: I wouldn't allow tattooed monk, because those tattoos, even though gained via a class ability, are obviously magical items. I will point out, in the interest of fairness, that Darrin never said anything about the Tattooed Monk. All of his posts are about the Kensei, so we can't really say that "according to him tattooes are allowed but kensai weaponry is not."

 

[Pax]

Read the original post again, James. The Tattoo'd Monk was specifically mentioned. By Darrin. And he okayed that combination. Specifically, the first paragraph.

 

[James McMurray]

Ah, I had missed that Whisperfoot and the original Darrin were the same person.

That just means we have yet a third option to consider. I'll happily stick with mine in my games.