Restrictions vs. Everything Goes

[Paradoxish]

I was debating whether to put this in the house rules board or in here, but I think it makes more sense here since I'm not really offering up any house rules of my own .

As a matter of fact, quite a few of the house rules that I use in my game are actually restrictions. Specifically, restrictions on a few (very few) feats from the Wizards splatbooks and restrictions on quite a few PrCs from those same books. In the past I've never had to go through the formality of typing this stuff up, but it seems to be a neccessity with my current group since at least two of them seem to think their job is to "beat" me by building uber-characters.

I got into an argument with one of my players in regards to this and it was one of those moments that went something like...

"Well, it's my campaign and I'm telling you this prestige class just doesn't work for it."
"Then I won't play!"
"Fine."
"...well, I'm still gonna play, but I'm really pissed about this!"

Cue player storming back to his seat in a bitter rage. The rest of my players seem okay with the restrictions, so normally I'd just shrug it off and keep going, but in a way I can see his point. On one hand, the Wizards class books may be official, but I also feel that quite a few of the PrCs in them are either unbalanced or totally broken. In a few other cases they just didn't fit with the feel of my campaign. On the other hand, the player who created the big fuss over this is a stat-whore, min/maxer kind of person. Considering this is a game, I hate to restrict his fun, but I also don't want to totally ruin the balance of the campaign and ruin everyone elses fun in the process.

So what do you all think? Is it in everyone's best interest to restrict a few obviously unbalanced things or is it better to just allow everything... or, at the very least, everything that's "official" from Wizards?

 

[memesis]

It's best to run the campaign as you see fit. If a player dislikes your treatment of some given aspect of the game, hand him the DMG and offer to let him run for a session or two, if the other players want to try out his ideas.

This can go in a few directions. The first (and most probable given your description) is that he may bring in an NPC with whatever feat/PrC/spell/late-model automobile you banned from your game. If this happens and the NPC shows up the PCs, then he's hopefully just learned a lesson. Another possibility is for you or some other player to bring in the restricted class/feat/whatsit and let him see how it performs, without disrupting the regular campaign.

Another slightly more confrontational approach is to simply explain your reasons for the ban. "I consider this unbalanced, but I am willing to tone down its power level if you let me know which parts of it you are most interested in playing". If he actually comes through with some element of the class/whatever that sounds interesting, consider allowing a modified version of it. But I wouldn't fold, just because a player says "it's official Wizards material".

 

[dcollins]

That's kind of funny (odd)... as far as I'm concerned, any materials outside the core rules need to be house ruled into a game, not house ruled out.

Maybe it would help to point your player to the start of Sword & Fist (and presumably other WOTC class books), p. 4, "What This Book Is and Is Not... Take and use what you like, modify whatever you feel requires it, and ignore the rest. Players should ask their DMs about incorporating any elements of this book beforehand."

 

[Chauzu]

I am between the two.

 

[gfunk]

So what do you all think? Is it in everyone's best interest to restrict a few obviously unbalanced things or is it better to just allow everything... or, at the very least, everything that's "official" from Wizards?

We try to work with our DM. If he thinks something is unbalanced, we discuss it with everyone and come up with a good compromise.

Here is list of things that we (DM/players) agreed upon:

Banned Spells
Ghostform (T&B)
Polymorph Self/Other/Any Object
Simulacrum
Hide Life (T&B)

Banned WOTC Books
FRCS (used only for role-playing content)
Magic of Faerun

On the whole, these changes have worked very well for us.

As far as I'm concerned if you play everything "as is" then either one of two things must be true:

1) You have very mature players who will not abuse loopholes in the system

2) The DM has a lot of time to design his own adventures or tweak existing ones to take into account the PCs power
Magic

 

[blackshirt5]

And don't forget options 3 and 4:

3) This world blows, because you have no control, trying to please everybody all the time by letting anyone play anything.

4) This world rules, because you keep very fine balance and manage to incorporate everything.

 

[s/LaSH]

Official means nothing, except for paragraph 2 of the Introduction to the DMG. That's probably the most important rule ever.

That said, you're supposed to make things fun for everyone, so I'd suggest seeing if a compromise can't be arranged. And if there's something really cool you haven't thought of for your game world, why not put it in? Unless it clashes with tone... but I'm a big fan of anything-goes, largely because it tests my skills to fit the standard ruleset into medieval Europe - and I like a challenge.

 

[Oni]

My basic opinion is this.

PHB, it's up to the DM to let you know any changes ahead of time. These are the most basic assumptions about the game.

Everything else, you have to ask the DM on a case by case basis. A good DM will tell you why he is rejecting something acceptable answers range from it's broken, lets to fix it, to it doesn't fit the flavor of this campaign, and a great deal of things inbetween. Caveat: If you wouldn't allow any player in your campaign to take it then it should be banned (i.e. no player 1 can take this class because he is a good roleplayer, but player 2 cannot because he is a powergamer). That kind of favoritism is disruptive and unhealthy.

 

[Sarellion]

You are doing the work to create the world and the campaign and it is your right to implement what you think belongs to your campaign and restrict what you do not want. This is even true for the corte rules.

Be not unreasonable dealing with a player or screw him over but he is participating in your campaign and has to follow the rules you set for your game.

By the way if he is the only min/maxer powergamer he is spoiling the fun for everyone else. You are supposed to have fun, too. Make it fun for everyone is a nice idea and hopefully it will be a blast for everyone to play but if one player's idea of fun collides with the expectations of others it is his problem. He does not have to participate if he has no fun playing, there is none forcing him to do it.

 

[Paradoxish]

Caveat: If you wouldn't allow any player in your campaign to take it then it should be banned (i.e. no player 1 can take this class because he is a good roleplayer, but player 2 cannot because he is a powergamer). That kind of favoritism is disruptive and unhealthy.

I agree 100%. I hope I didn't come off in my original post as implying that I was restricting this PrC because this particular player is a power gamer. Rather, I typed up a list of what PrCs from the Wizards books are allowed before the campaign even began. This was mainly to save me the trouble of having everyone come up to me at the beginning of the game asking if something is allowed. It just so happened that this particular PrC wasn't on my "approved" list and the person who wanted to take it got into an argument with me. I ended up explaining to him that I found it so unbalancing that I would never even think of using in its current state, even for an NPC.

This may sound a little nonsensical and a bit like a rant, but sometimes it seems like I'm talking to a wall when it comes half of the players in my gaming group. The two people who I would classify as "powergamers" - sometimes to the point where I wonder if they even understand the concept of RPGs. Telling them that it's essentially up to the DM what to allow and what not to allow is usually met with a response along the lines of "That's not fair!". Maybe I just need to find new players.