D&D (2024) Rests should be dropped. Stop conflating survival mechanics with resource recovery.

[Emberashh]

no, it’s a bad idea, I understand why games do it., I have no interest in seeing this in a TTRPG

Care to elaborate?

 

[mamba]

Care to elaborate?

it eliminates rests with potions that let you go forever.

At that point you might as well have all resources refresh per encounter (like the guy with his 4e + 5e + ICRPG abomination does), unless these potions are difficult enough to get that you would only use them in dire circumstances.

To me per encounter refreshs are basically the worst thing possible, they take away any consequences to decisions in combat (outside of the encounter itself). Go all out every single time, either you survive and then nothing mattered, or you are dead anyway. That refresh system would by itself be enough to make me switch games.

I want some level of realism in my game, more than Diablo offers at least.

 

[Emberashh]

it eliminates rests with potions that let you go forever.

I think you're assuming the worst possible version of the mechanics rather than thinking of how it ought to work to best suit the game.

I mentioned earlier my take on it. Diminishing returns coupled with time gating that doesn't rely on arbitrary time skips. Even just diminishing returns on its own would work well.

No one is seriously suggesting Skyrim style 500 cheesewheel style spamming. Thats an example of the mechanics that cRPGs are doing poorly when its allowed.

To me per encounter refreshs are basically the worst thing possible, they take away any consequences to decisions in combat.

Thats why its also a good idea to not have the game be inundated with HP sponges, on either side of a battle. Those consequences you want are found in the risk of, well, taking risks. Stretching yourself past your limits isn't made unrisky because you can recover if you succeed. Its still risky because if you fail, you could well die, depending on the situation. The risk of attrition over an adventuring day only matters if you're still clinging to the adventuring day as a concept, which per encounter obviously rejects on the whole. The adventure takes as long as it takes.

I have this philosophy because I was a firm advocate for the use of Epic Heroism in 5e, and I always paired it with Slow Natural Healing. It worked so much better than the standard and did a lot for high level play. Moving to an Energy system is just the next step in embracing that reality.

And its not like you can't do attrition here. Additonal elements like Injuries can further emphasize the need to weigh risks, and with Time's importance restored you can do a lot, even without going for full survival mode.

If one uses a mechanic like the Tension pool, time becomes a matter of attrition very easily, as does the decision to take fights in the first place. If one isn't careful, you're inviting a complication. If one is reckless, you may well be guaranteeing it.

All this said to make the point again that we need to not take things at face value, assume the worst, and then do no more thinking. Theres more, and Id argue better, ways to induce meaningful choices and consequences than tying abilities to resting, just for the sake of a tradition.

 

[mamba]

The risk of attrition over an adventuring day only matters if you're still clinging to the adventuring day as a concept, which per encounter obviously rejects on the whole. The adventure takes as long as it takes.

yes I do, not every battle is a ‘can they survive this’ 3x deadly level fight, and at ‘per encounter’ everything else is without any consequence

The chars are not superheroes that walk away from everything without a scratch, unless they just ran into Thanos (and even then if they make it)

I have this philosophy because I was a firm advocate for the use of Epic Heroism in 5e, and I always paired it with Slow Natural Healing

I can see that, I am not in that camp

 

[Bagpuss]

Something that I just simply cannot comprehend is why people who likes 4E is spending all their time trying to "fix" 5E into being more like 4E. Why not just play 4E? My group went back to 2E during 4E for pretty much this exact reason.

It's more a case of you often see people who don't know about 4th Ed suggesting solutions for 5th Ed problems that are remarkably like solutions that were used in 4th Ed for 3rd Ed problems, that were reintroduced because Pathfinder did so well in comparison.

 

[Bagpuss]

If mana potions are that plentiful then why are we bothering with resource based abilities at all?

This kind of cynicism undermines itself when it fails to think more than a step ahead.

Ah so mana potions are a limited resource... who determines the limitation?

In your original post you seem to be complaining that players had to negotiate the amount of rest time available with the DM to regain resources.

Your solution is they have to now negotiate the amount of mana potions available from the DM?

I'm not seeing a fix to the problem you identified.

 

[CreamCloud0]

The Fighter: my guy, it's been two weeks since you purchased that thing, when was the last time you slept?
The Wizard, visibly jittering and getting another blue mana shot from their arcane expresso machine: SLeeP? I DON'T NEED SLEep I have poTIONS, as many potions as I COULD EVER NEED!

 

[Neonchameleon]

Because its a game and attrition fosters fun.

Theres a reason cheat mode makes games less fun than they used to be. Limits are a good thing.

Challenge fosters fun. Attrition involves large periods of not very challenging areas to get to where the challenge is actually directly present.

 

[Flamestrike]

Its high time to abandon it. Its dumb and the pearl clutchers can be ignored.

The best solutions to fixing the problems with rest involve limiting when they can be used, which in turn just causes a verisimilitude problem. Those obnoxious safe haven rules are awful and is just a flipside of the coin of unimmersive mechanics.

Survival ultimately should be an all or nothing option. Either you go all the way or you don't do it at all, and the desperate clinging to rests just holds the game down. Let it go.

An energy system like Mana or Stamina works better all around and is a lot easier to balance around, and it can work no matter what kind of campaign or module is being run. From Marvel esque romps to nitty gritty horror and anything inbetween. And, best part, no arguing.

Have a potion? Your loss if you decide to use it at a bad time. No wasted time trying to negotiate for what amount of time we're going to skip for arbitrary reasons.

All abilities (spells, action surge, rages, whatever) should be converted into x per encounter abilities with the occasional limit of 'but not more than x per session' and rebalanced accordingly.

Effectively all spells, multiple attacks etc are all converted into abilities similar to ToBs maneuvers and stances.

When you roll initiative, or at the start of a new session, (or when the DM says so, for particularly long sessions either of game time or real time) all abilities refresh.

In addition, at the end of an encounter, your HP reset to half if your HP are lower than that number (but not at zero) as you catch your breath and bind wounds etc.

Balancing encounters then becomes a lot easier, and sessions (and in game 'adventuring days') are largely number of encounter neutral.

Everyone hits every encounter with powers ready to use (barring 'per session' powers), and at least half HP.

 

[R_J_K75]

Isn't that just an attack roll, skill check or saving throw?

Not necessarily, doesn't have to be. See here's why I believe 1D&D wont be good....Lack of innovation. It will fail to move D&D forward away from the d20 system which at this point they should. It will change terms. powers, spells, etc, but its not going to change the core mechanic chassis. Wasted opportunity with the 2024 release IMO. Backwards compatibility is a joke and stupid idea, ditch that notion and make something new because 5E sucks eggs on a fundamental basis. The 2024 release seems to be trying to polish the 2014s turd.