D&D General Rethinking the class name "Druid".

[Crimson Longinus]

Start there, and provide specific sources that define a core aspect of shamanism as the ability to shapeshift. Because every definition I could find doesn't mention that at all, but focuses on the connections with spirits (often as part of a ritual or trance).

It might not be a core aspect, but it is a thing that is far more strongly associated with shamanism than it is with druidism.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It might not be a core aspect, but it is a thing that is far more strongly associated with shamanism than it is with druidism.

Why? Where is it defined as such? I keep asking for that, but no one can seem to provide it. Just because some people associate it, doesn't make it true. Which goes back to my original comment, I suspect people are making an assumption based on a video game or media portrayal rather than the actual definition.

Therefore, claims that any form of shapeshifting in the mythology of cultures around the world is shamanism seems pretty flawed. Especially when those examples literally have no other shared traits of how shamanism is actually defined.

Also, while there is scant evidence of druids shapeshifting, there is at least some (Merlin and Morgan have both been associated with druidism and both have examples of them shapeshifting). And Celtic lore and mythology is rife with examples of shapeshifting by people who shared the same powers/role as traditional druids even if they weren't described literally as such. But D&D never portrayed druids historically accurate anyway, otherwise there'd be a whole more sacrifice in their class description lol.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Why? Where is it defined as such? I keep asking for that, but no one can seem to provide it. Just because some people associate it, doesn't make it true. Which goes back to my original comment, I suspect people are making an assumption based on a video game or media portrayal rather than the actual definition.

No. If we go by video game portrayals, druids are the shapeshifters.

Therefore, claims that any form of shapeshifting in the mythology of cultures around the world is shamanism seems pretty flawed. Especially when those examples literally have no other shared traits of how shamanism is actually defined.

The Magic of Shapeshifting
Transformation and Shamanism | AMNH
(PDF) Becoming Animals: Neurobiology of Shamanic Shapeshifting

Also, while there is scant evidence of druids shapeshifting, there is at least some (Merlin and Morgan have both been associated with druidism and both have examples of them shapeshifting). And Celtic lore and mythology is rife with examples of shapeshifting by people who shared the same powers/role as traditional druids even if they weren't described literally as such. But D&D never portrayed druids historically accurate anyway, otherwise there'd be a whole more sacrifice in their class description lol.

Is Merlin a druid though? I don't think so. Granted, he is some sort of western ur-magic-person who can seen as a wizard, bard, druid whatever.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

Do you know what a "priest" is?

It's someone who stands in the role of intercessor between between the gods and ordinary people. The historical druids might have done that, but the D&D druid was never based on historical druids, of which even less was known in the 70s than it is now, but mythical/fictional figures like Merlin and Radagast.

Historical Druid:
Nature magic: No, there is no evidence to tie them specifically to nature magic;
Shapechanging: No, there is no evidence to suggest they believed they could do this;
Intercessor: yes;
Magic: yes. Both the druids and their enemies believed they could wield powerful magic;
D&D 5e class: Cleric.

D&D/CRPG Druid:
Nature magic: yes;
Shapechanging: yes;
Intercessor: no;
Magic: yes;
D&D 5e class: Druid.

I have no idea what you're trying to say.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Fortunately “shaman” seems to be losing its connotation with “primitive”.

Instead it’s starting to connote “gullible and bored nouveau riche, disenchanted with their parents’ church but still looking for answers.”

P.S. What, me? Mother-in-law issues? Never.

 

[Sacrosanct]

No. If we go by video game portrayals, druids are the shapeshifters.


The Magic of Shapeshifting

Just someone's blog/opinion

Transformation and Shamanism | AMNH

Author is a photographer with no real specialty

(PDF) Becoming Animals: Neurobiology of Shamanic Shapeshifting

Arthur Saniotis is a biological anthropologist and has expertise in that field. However, it's a disappointment when his approach is to pretty much lump all primitive societies as shamanistic, using that term to apply to all primitive cultures in general. He's not giving a definition of what shamanism is, either. He's saying that shapeshifting in primitive society is shamanistic and/or only shamans engaged in shapeshifting, when we already know that's not the case (see examples upthread about many examples in many cultures all over the world of where shapeshifting occurs and is not shamanistic). I certainly don't question his biological anthropological skill or knowledge, but it's disappointing when he uses the word "shaman" so broadly to encompass every pre-modern culture and society. To be honest, it rings pretty hard of how Christians called all non-Christians heathens, just using a single term to lump everyone who has a different belief system than them. (He also cites himself in third person his paper as a reference to authority, which is odd...)

Is Merlin a druid though?

According to scholars like Tolstoy he is.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I just want to jump in here and point out that D&D druids having the ability shapeshift is attributable to Celtic mythological figures like Cathbad, Midir, Etain, etc. Freaking everybody is always shapeshifting into something or other in Celtic mythology, and even though it's not specifically a power of druids in the folklore, the connection can't really becalled tenuous, because both druids and shapeshifting are concepts strongly associated with the mythos as a whole.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Fortunately “shaman” seems to be losing its connotation with “primitive”.

I seem to remember back at school in Religious Studies classes 40 years ago being taught that religion "advanced" from animism through polytheism, with monotheism being the "highest" form of religion.

I don't think that would wash these days!

 

[Mannahnin]

I seem to remember back at school in Religious Studies classes 40 years ago being taught that religion "advanced" from animism through polytheism, with monotheism being the "highest" form of religion.

I don't think that would wash these days!

I got the same in a text in the 90s, for a Comparative Religion course taught by a nun. That was an interesting concept to sit with as a neopagan/reconstructionist Druid, I can tell you.

 

[steeldragons]

While everyone is spending such time and effort in "rethinking"...druids, shamanism, animism, what folds into what, and what makes more sense as the umbrella class, and [meaning], and [function], and, and, and...

I will simply throw in my two coppers that it behooves us all, from time to time, to remember that there is such a thing as "OVERthinking"...and that the former can become the latter in the blink of an eye.