Aldarc
Legend
But wizards took a lot of that too with polymorph, disguise self, etc.
D&D General Rethinking the class name "Druid".
Sacrosanct
Legend
I didn't say there wasn't what some would classify shamanism in Norse mythology, I said there are plenty of examples of shapechanging in Norse mythology that has nothing to do with shamanism. And that's true. Hræsvelgr for example. And about a million others. Loki changes shape all the time.
Sepulchrave II
Legend
Hræsvelgr ("corpse-eater" - nothing taboo-shattering or anything shamanic about that) lives in the far north (i.e. where the Sami live; nothing shamanic about that), wears feathers (nothing shamanic about that), takes the form of an eagle (definitely nothing shamanic about that).
Loki, a trickster, often takes the form of a salmon (nothing shamanic about that); flies through the air with a costume of falcon feathers (nothing shamanic about that).
I mean....really?
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
And the Norse Dwarves? They could shapeshift, too. None of the myths I've read makes me think shaman or animism.
Sacrosanct
Legend
Ah, I see. It appears you're conflating things as shamanistic that really aren't. I don't know, maybe based on a preconception you've seen in modern media or a video game? I suggest looking at what the definition of shamanism is.
Hræsvelgr doesn't literally eat corpses. He's basically a giant who takes the form of a giant eagle and is responsible for creating the winds. Nothing about that is shamanism. Taking a different shape isn't necessarily shamanism, as shamans aren't the only people in history who have been ascribed that trait (in fact, original definitions of shamanism don't have shapeshifting traits at all). Also, just because the original people described as shamans (the Sym Evenki) are "northern", doesn't mean they are the same as every other northern peoples. Northern Asian people is completely different culture than Northern Europe/Germanic/Nordic culture. To automatically assume Nordic mythology is shamanistic because the Sym Evenki are also in the northern region of the globe is....wrong. The Sym Evenki don't live anywhere near where the Norse people live.
Also, I think you'd be better served to understand that shamanism is only one part of the larger umbrella of animism. That way you wouldn't keep ascribing aspects as shamanistic when they aren't. There are many examples of animal shapeshifting that aren't related to shamanism, from lycanthropy to mythology all around the world.
Sepulchrave II
Legend
I see that my time with Juha Pentikäinen at Helsinki was wasted.
You're bringing a knife to carpet-bombing campaign, but I really can't be bothered.
You're bringing a knife to carpet-bombing campaign, but I really can't be bothered.
Sacrosanct
Legend
If they told you that the examples of shapeshifting in Norse mythology must be shamanism because Norse people live in the far north, and the original peoples defined with that term (Northern Asians) live in the far north, then yeah, I'd say it was pretty wasted. Especially since the original definitions of shamanism don't have anything to do with shapeshifting.
Well, I look forward to you addressing the parts that directly refute your argument then, if it's so easy.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
So an Appeal to Authority and an exit. That's an effective counter.
Loki could also change into an old woman(not shamanistic), and if you're shapechanging waaaaaaay back when these myths were created, what other than humans and animals are you going to turn into? Turning into a salmon or a horse doesn't equate to shamanism.
Sacrosanct
Legend
I think some confusion could be avoided if we start with some core understandings:
1. The definition of shamanism does not focus on shapeshifting at all. Not only is it not a focus, it's not even part of the definition. That doesn't mean shapechanging can't be part of a shamanistic culture, but that it's not core, or required, in that definition.
2. shamanism is just part of overall animism. They are not the same. Animism much broader (and why I believe, as do others, that shamanism is a term that shouldn't be used because it's more specific to only a certain few cultures, and teeters on cultural appropriation, where animism is more broad and still includes all of those aspects of shamanism).
3. The idea or concept of people changing shape is in nearly every culture in the world, many of those have nothing to do with how shamanism is defined. As mentioned above, Germanic and Norse mythology has examples of shapeshifting that have nothing to do with a spirit connection. The concept of lycanthropy is another example. Numerous examples in Greek mythology are another (Arachne for example). Celtic mythology is also full of examples of shapeshifting (not just the fairies, but many stories are around shapeshifting as a form of punishment). The list really does go on.
Those are all known objective facts. Therefore, and this part is my opinion and I admit it, I really don't think we should be using the term "shaman" anyway because the history of that term is pretty specific to certain cultures. Just like we shouldn't be using "spirit animal" because that is closely tied to North American indigenous cultures. I think the evidence also shows that just because something has shapechanging abilities or traits, it doesn't mean it's a "shamanistic" trait, and assuming as such is flawed.
Similar Threads
