Retraining?

[Li Shenron]

I hate retraining rules.

They serve mostly two purposes: (a) help powergamers adapt their min-maxing to the current adventure, and (b) encourage the undecided players not to put more thoughts into their character development because they can always fix their mistakes by retraining.

I have no interest in supporting (a), and I think allowing (b) just makes players play less seriously so it's a big NO for my tastes.

If you're bored with your character in my campaign, I'll let you make a new one, same level or close.

If you're stuck with a bad choice... well first of all it shouldn't be a big deal, people IRL sometimes waste years enrolling to a wrong school or doing a wrong job, and nobody is going to give them those years back. Sucks, but it's life. BUT (*big* but...) truly bad choices in character creation are RARE. Instead of whining for one subpar feat of a few skill points misplaced, work towards getting them back to use (and as a DM, I'll work forward the same goal from behind my screen too).

 

[IanB]

Absolutely, why not have it as an option? It is hard to think of something that would be easier for a DM to pull out if she didn't want to use it.

 

[BobTheNob]

I hate retraining rules.

They serve mostly two purposes: (a) help powergamers adapt their min-maxing to the current adventure, and (b) encourage the undecided players not to put more thoughts into their character development because they can always fix their mistakes by retraining.

Disagree with this. We had two situations in 4e where retraining occured

1) A dwarf took a feat(cant remember its name) which gave a defence bonus to adjacent bloodied allies. Problem was investment in high mobility by teammates after this rendered it obsolete very quickly. Even with the player having put all the thought into the decision, it still wasnt a good one. Is it the expectation that players have to suck it up and not enjoy there character due to a misjudgement?

2) A paladin specc'd himself Str/Chr (amature mistake made in early 4e days, looked great on paper, didnt fly come game time). Some months into the campaign I observed he just wasnt enjoying the character. He wasnt because it was just a sub-par piece of work compared to other players, and frankly I agreed. I allowed him a completed re-configure of his character to Str/Wis, after that he got up and started enjoying his character.

I understand why people would say "No" to re-speccing, that was my attitude when I was younger, but as I have grown up I have realized that expecting players to not enjoy playing their character due to a perfectly understandable design mis-decision is a gross violation of a DM's responsibilities.

In this day and age I dont think "locking" characters is reasonable.

 

[the Jester]

Yes, as an add-on option for the dm to use or not.

Personally, I favor "new pcs get to retrain stuff for the first couple of levels, then no".

 

[Tallifer]

I hate retraining rules.

If you're stuck with a bad choice... well first of all it shouldn't be a big deal, people IRL sometimes waste years enrolling to a wrong school or doing a wrong job, and nobody is going to give them those years back. Sucks, but it's life.

I also disagree with your other reasons, but I strongly object to long-term suffering like this. Make the characters die, suffer from thirst and famine in a desert, maim them in battle, curse them and give them diseases... but do not make character generation into a horrible career choice or a punishment for bad study habits in high school. That is all the pain of real life without the drama of story.

 

[Dragonblade]

I keep seeing the same threads coming up again and again in this forum and people keep arguing the same points over and over again.

Anyway, it should be a sidebar, not a specific rule, but generally speaking a player should be free to swap out any aspect of their character they have an issue with. Some DMs may prefer such retraining to happen during campaign down time, not in the middle of a dungeon, but it generally should be allowed.

Any DM who thinks that retraining is for powergamers plays with some pretty bad powergamers. The ones I play with have extensive spreadsheets calculating out every feat and power choice and its effect on their PC all the way up to level 30 before the campaign has ever started.

Its not powergamers that need retraining. Its the average Joe player who hasn't memorized every feat, power, and spell in the book.

 

[BobTheNob]

I also disagree with your other reasons, but I strongly object to long-term suffering like this. Make the characters die, suffer from thirst and famine in a desert, maim them in battle, curse them and give them diseases... but do not make character generation into a horrible career choice or a punishment for bad study habits in high school. That is all the pain of real life without the drama of story.

Absolutely. The idea of imposing a permanent punishment on a play for not having studied game books is insane. Just nuts.

I have 1 powergamer and 5 casual players. Are people actually suggesting that my 5 casuals are *obligated* to take up game study as a hobby? Really? When they find out they have made a bad decision, people against re-training would expect the DM to say "Sorry, you should have done your homework".

Here is a news flash. Some players dont want to. Some just want to enjoy the game and enjoy their character WITHOUT tralling through every darn sourcebook out there to ensure that not a single mistake is made. They want to pick a feat/spell/whatever and move on with play for the 2 hours per week they devote, and they want to enjoy those 2 hours.

So frankly, If they dont allow re-training in 5e, screw em. As a DM I will always allow it, because I want my group to enjoy the experience.

 

[enigma5915]

Absolutely not. Retraining does not make any since. I can’t evade my logic to accept retraining no matter how hard I try. How do you explain retraining? I mean how do you explain if one day I decided that the skills I learned driving a car were no longer needed and that I can just trade my driving skills for piloting a jet skills? This is kind of absurd, especial with my analogy, but my point is solid. Retraining seems to be a cushion for bad mistakes or a tool for min-maxers, not to mention it completely breaks the fourth wall. I someone takes their time to learn something and later decides they wished they would have learned something else…too bad. There are plenty of people with college educations with the same problem. Just because this is a game does not mean we should be shielded and protected from our own bad decisions. More learning is made from the mistakes we make, that’s life. Maybe it’s me, but I enjoy playing my games without the training wheels.

 

[ExploderWizard]

First of all, I hope the core game characters can be easily generated and played without a bunch of fiddly little build decisions. Package the class abilities and options neatly within each class and have done with it.

If supplemental add-ons want to add tons of stuff to bolt on that turns the character sheet into something resembling a fluttering petal damage schematic more power to them, and use whatever retraining rules they feel like.

 

[Savage Wombat]

I am OK with retraining as a ret-con - if a new splatbook provides a better option, if a character's build isn't working like they wanted. But you don't need rules for that, you need an understanding GM.

Formal retraining rules are for players who say "now that I'm 12th level, I don't need this Toughness feat any more" or "I'm bored with being an elven rogue, I want to be a shardmind battlemind but I don't want to start a new character". This is a no-no.