Retraining?

[enigma5915]

I agree! D&D should definitely be all about punishing the players for choices they make. Realism such as this must take precedence over fun, and nobody should allowed any latitude for error. NO TAKEBACKS IN D&D EVER.

D&D is Serious Business and if players just don't realize this, then they deserve to suffer for their folly! We play HARDCORE D&D at this table, no need for training wheels!

...wait, come back everyone, someone tell me why this hobby is dying?

Yes, thats exactly what I ment. Its like conversing with kids, c'mon, really? If you dont like my opinion, thats fine, but this is childish. I stand by my statement. I feel retraining is goofy and stupid and I would not like to see it again, thats my opinion.

 

[Oni]

Yes, thats exactly what I ment. Its like conversing with kids, c'mon, really? If you dont like my opinion, thats fine, but this is childish. I stand by my statement. I feel retraining is goofy and stupid and I would not like to see it again, thats my opinion.

So if a player came to you and said that they liked their character from a story and personality standpoint but that mechanically it just wasn't working out like they hoped and it was affecting their enjoyment of the game, what would you do?

 

[enigma5915]

No edition of the game has ever truly modelled, or probably even tried to model, how we acquire (and maintain) skills and abilities in the real world.

Given that, why should it follow that retraining should be modelled on the real world?

If the purpose of gaming was to teach me and the people I play with how to better plan their characters, then yes, having to live with our bad decisions would be one reasonable way to encourage that.

That's not why most of us play, though. Most of us play for the enjoyment of playing at the table. Many players don't have the desire to master every aspect of character building. Others might have the desire, but lack the available time to spend on such a leisure activity. Requiring them to have less fun at the table because they didn't have the time or inclination to master the char-gen system seems needlessly petty.

Making characters does not need to be some all intensive activity and the end character does not to be great at everything. Maybe people get hung up on having the perfect character, I don't know. Enjoyment at the table shouldn’t be tied to having to retrain your character. So much fun can be had playing the character you start with and learning to deal with situations within the characters restrictions and limitations. My concept isn’t that the game has to be hard, rough and mean. My concept is that when a group of friends succeed at overcoming difficult situations there is a true since of accomplishment, which I feel is belittled if your success is handed to you. And retraining is one way of handing you your easy victory…

 

[enigma5915]

So if a player came to you and said that they liked their character from a story and personality standpoint but that mechanically it just wasn't working out like they hoped and it was affecting their enjoyment of the game, what would you do?

OK, fair question. In the past that has happend and the players have had that exact issue. In those cases I hand waived the change as long as the change didnt have any side effects or major differences to the story. I'm not a D#*k DM, I'm stern and try to be fair and think about my players fun all time. That being said, as soon as we started playing 4th, some people...mostly newbies were retraining all the damn time. It became silly and I disallowed it. The problem was the newbies didnt understand cause it was in the book as part of the rules... I dont want to see it in the rules again.

 

[BobTheNob]

Ok, I think that is a little better stated then.

In any system which allows micro configuration of class, there is always a capacity for "getting it wrong" : putting something together which leaves a really foul taste in your mouth as a player and generally detracts from enjoying the character. I have been a victim of it too. It just leaves you with a really nasty feeling (Diablo2, Im looking at you!!!)

But open door re-trains every level are just an prone to abuse (I wasnt especially fond of training out heroic tier feats for paragon/epic tier just cause you could, which our powergamer did do).

So what this comes down to is a side note "DM's : at times player will put something together which just plumb doesn't work. If they can justify this work with them and allow them to change their choice". So its not "retraining" as such, its just letting the players tweak out the mistakes that are degrading their enjoyment and connection with their character.

Thats fair enough, on that basis I would disallow training.

 

[Grydan]

A difficult situation that the DM presents, which the players (through their characters) then overcome through effort at the game table is wonderful.

A player having less fun than they could be having, because they chose an option that doesn't function the way they thought it did, or no longer suits their tastes, is not a problem that is overcome through gameplay. It's a problem that's overcome, quite quickly and easily, by saying "change it".

It's not about being great at everything. It's not about having success handed to you. It's not about easy victories.

Some people, like yourself, enjoy having to stick with every choice you make, and learning to cope with any problems that causes. Other people do not. Having retraining rules does nothing to impede your ability to play as you choose (as you can merely decide not to retrain anything), while not having them impedes those with different tastes than your own.

 

[SteveC]

I like the retraining rules in 4E a lot, and think they're part of the better design ideas in the game, especially as the game has come to evolve.

When you create a character if options that would make it more interesting and dare I say, fun, to play come out, should you be locked out of them until your next character? Without retraining, I have seen this typically end with a new character being created that has these new options, which is all well and good, until another set of options come out six months from now.

Are retraining options realistic? No, not really, and that's why I expect they won't be in the new edition. A number of folks can say "hey, this should just be something that you work out with your DM." But... if a player asked to retrain something, I will bet that a majority of these folks would say "no". And that makes retraining another option of "mother may I," and something to be avoided.

Since D&D XP my attitude of rules options is, was this rule created to address a perceived issue with earlier editions by 4E? Was this rule introduced to increase the level of "fun" in the session and make the game generally run faster? In either case, if the answer is yes, I expect that to not be the default rule in D&D Next.

Did I mention that the playtest can't get here fast enough so that I can be proven wrong about this?

 

[Jeff Carlsen]

There are two types of games to consider. Home games and organized play.

For home games, the retraining rules are too mechanical in nature. In our games, we've always allowed players a couple sessions to determine if they enjoy the mechanics of the characters they've built, and during that time we're fairly open to changes. After that, it's handled on a case by case basis. Did you find a book with options that better match your character? There's a good chance you'll be allowed to rework things.

These don't require rules, they require a section in the DMG that gives guidelines on working with your players.

For organized play, where players are constantly switching between parties and DM's, a set of rules is the only reasonable approach. That said, those rules should be a part of an organized play module. They aren't needed in the core rulebooks.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

In fantasy isn't Conan the prime example of someone who uses his retraining options on a rather constant basis?

 

[Vegepygmy]

Its not powergamers that need retraining. Its the average Joe player who hasn't memorized every feat, power, and spell in the book.

Exactly.

That said, I would prefer that retraining rules be an optional add-on, so that the purists can easily prohibit it. I see no reason for retraining to be part of the core rules.