Retreating *is* an option!

[frankthedm]

If PC's can buy magic items, then the onus is on them. Each person should potion of inviso for a chug, shatter and scatter, and party treasure should be buying a Scroll of teleport 1,125 gp ASAP. Enough for the caster and 3 others. If there more more than 4 in the party and the PCs are too cheap to splurge, someone has to cut thier own throat, thus becoming an item to be carried by someone else. The chance of the scroll not working is still better than the no chance of a hopeless fight.

And if players can buy one shot teleport items, [4600gp] they have no excuse not to.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Our party devotes over half of their spells, gear and consumables to retreat options. Nearly the rest goes into boosting hit points and saves. They still only retreat after at least 2 PCs are dead, or all of them are under half health and the healer is down. We have a frontline fighter that won't go anywhere more than 10ft from the healer, but hits like a girl except for like 5/day smites, while the other 3 frontliners are mixing it up everywhere. (there are 9 players) 1 blaster won't use movement spells unless he is in immediate danger, never for tactical movement (he uses share pain, vigor, false life, and some DR power, and has effectively more than half again as many hit points as any of the frontliners, plus he's Elan, so he has the damage buffer too. If he took empathic feedback and stood in the front, he'd be a great meatshield, power point for power point, empathic feedback is a great value, since anything attacking is going to hit at least 3-4 times, maybe even in one round).

We have retreated several times, but taken heavy losses while doing so, and there's only 1 original PC from 1st level still in the campaign. (16th level now)

 

[Chimera]

Let's go back to the Temple of Spontaneous Combustion!"

Bold and Capitalization added by me.



That's beautiful. Thanks for making me laugh.

 

[MerricB]

This is not the first time the party has had to retreat. Thinking about it, the previous two sessions before this one had them retreating from bad situations. (There have also been times in those two sessions where they've totally destroyed the opposition, so there is variety in the encounters).

This campaign is, without a doubt, the most hostile I've yet run for the PCs. The BBEGs they are fighting are way more powerful than them, and as a result the poor County of Ulek is being overrun. (Imagine a nice warm mediterranean country suddenly being in the middle of a blizzard - eek! I really should hunt up some Barbara Hambly books for additional inspiration).

The setting is very light on arcane and clerical magic - more bards and druids than wizards and clerics. A lot of regular D&D options don't exist. (The party has a druid/wizard, bard/druid/rogue and incarnate as its magic-users).

On those rare occasions I do get to play D&D, as opposed to DMing it, I have a fairly paranoid, old-school play style. During a recent Greyhawk Ruins campaign, the other players quickly learnt that when I started retreating, it was a good idea for them all to retreat. Often, I'd retreat at the first sign of an encounter, just because I didn't like the odds. I will also say that I was a lot braver once I reached higher levels, say 9th or so, and had magic to get me out of situations that turned bad! The king of the situations which went bad was when I was facing a Great Wyrm Red Dragon alone! Oops. I didn't have any magic in that situation, but actually managed to talk my way out of it. By the end of that campaign, I was the only player who had never lost a PC.

This encounter was lifted fairly much straight from the Corum books, and was designed to introduce a new class of enemies - the Brothers of the Pines. In my original notes for encounter, I thought I'd send them up against a group of such enemies, but reverted in the session to just having the one. (Later sessions will have the groups of lesser enemies).

One feature of the encounter is that it shows that you can't just ignore things. There were four things I included in it that should have alerted the party that something was unusual:

* In the round before Hew Therch was slain, the Druid's bear tried to grapple him... only to fail because he couldn't be pulled off the horse.
* When Hew was slain, he fell off the "horse", and it began to drag him with its teeth away.
* The horse was tough. As in, AC 31, DR 10/slashing, immune crits, and dealt 1d6+10 damage with each hoof attack. And hit most of the time.
* The "horse" would provoke AoOs to attack the healers and lightly armoured members of the party.

(What CR was the horse? I'd put it about 12 or 13).

One comment I got from the players was that the PC that went down was killed by a critical, and that couldn't be predicted. I disagree. Any creature that attacks 3 times/round is going to have its fair share of criticals, especially over a combat that takes 12+ rounds. For superior play of D&D, you've got to keep the possibility in mind.

I strongly believe in heroism in D&D, but I also believe that you need to pay attention to what's going on, and having tactical plans for situations such as this. It took three rounds from the first PC suggesting the retreat take place before that actually happened.

Cheers!

 

[Chimera]

Three of my players and I played together in a previous game. There were a number of occasions where I (the party Wizard and Tactician) sounded a very loud call to Retreat!, only to be solidly ignored. The Psi-Warrior insisted on remaining behind to cover our retreat, insisting that he would be last to leave combat. Despite being the slowest member of our party. (Yeah, we all get away, you die. Some tactic.) The Druid refused to leave until the Scout did. The Scout was an idiot and often advanced while the rest of us retreated. ('Cover Fire' you know, from close range. We once had to turn around and blow scrolls to recover her unconscious body before retreating again, mostly because....) The Cleric refused to leave ANYONE behind.

Lots of reasons to refuse to retreat, even as they claimed to recognize the need to do so on occasion.


In the latest session of my game, they got caught in a tight corridor where only the lead person could attack, while being subjected to two or three enemies and whatever missile fire the rest could manage. The PC up front was getting mangled. The Rogue/Wizard (the Cleric player from the previous game) called for a retreat to the previous room, hoping to lure in the Orcs so that more of the party can fight at once. No one moved. Finally, he says "Guys, *someone* has to retreat first."

Then we start getting the same half-baked 'reasons'. "I'm always last to retreat!" claims the Ranger (the PW from the previous game). "I'll retreat after they (the Ranger and current PW) retreat!" claims the Psion (previous Druid player).

*Sigh*

It took a bit, but they finally 'got it' and retreated down the hall.


In the previous session, while making a raid on the back of a 200+ Kobold train (many with class levels) to attempt to free some of their human prisoners; the invisible PW, rather than simply grabbing one of the drugged prisoners and fleeing, declares "I think I'll melee for a while". The rest of the players went nuts. Heck, even I had to tell him that it was suicide.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

D&D PCs rarely retreat. I suspect that's why TPKs are a common topic for discussion.

Attempting retreat is often suicidal.

MerricB did just fine here.

But I would note that a number of self-proclaimed tough love DMs on these boards advocate retreat for the "smart" player, but that is usually only possible if the DM actually coddles the players.

This smart player has noticed that retreat is mathematically impossible for most PCs most of the time, and is not to be treated lightly if it is possible...unless your PC is the type of "hero" who is not dissuaded by the inevitable death screams of your best friends who lag behind.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Oh, I don't know. I almost always allow for the option in games that I run. There are going to be some encounters that won't allow it for whatever reason (final battle, there is a timeline that must be met, etc.) but I try diligently to give my players as much information as I can before dropping the bomb on them.

To say that retreat is mathematically impossible isn't really a fair statement. Or, if they are, please enlighten me as to why it is so.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

To say that retreat is mathematically impossible isn't really a fair statement. Or, if they are, please enlighten me as to why it is so.

Agreed. Can we see the math please?

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Retreat simply does not happen very often

In D&D, defeat often happens, but retreat usually does not. If there is any indication that a victory is possible, the players will simply not retreat. Its not in their blood. Also, I suppose that turning tail and running is just not very heroic.

You can make retreat happen though. Its not hard, you just have to send them a message, writting in 30 metre high letters in the sky. Put your party of 4 3rd level adventurers in the same area as an Ancient Green Dragon who is currently mopping up some other adventurers. Have the dragon finish off some knight in shiniing armour with a claw attack turning him into a stain. Have the dragon turn around, looking somewhat wounded and very angry, and have it say 'Do you really want some of this?'

Now, in that instance, I will say that unless the party has a death wish, they will turn tail and run. It also works with Liches, or beholders.

I would suggest that for any combat encounter that has a reasonable chance of the PC's losing, that the DM has a Plan B handy in the event that the party is defeated. And dont be afraid to say things like "As the Barbarian falls to a relentles hail of arrows and the hobgoblins howl with bloodlust, you get the cold feeling in the pit of your stomach that these may be your last moments. You can see the way behind you is clear. A part of you would like very much to see the next days sunrise, but another part of you wonders if that will happen."

That sort of thing may make a retreat happen. But it might also inspire a heroic, if doomed last stand.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[danzig138]

They were delighted when they finally managed to take someone down before they escaped!

With my group, the only thing that seems to make them angrier than getting their butts handed to them is when the bad guy runs away. Nothing I can do will get me called names faster than a villain who says "Maybe next time, fellas." and bolts.