Retreating *is* an option!

[Ranger REG]

Attempting retreat is often suicidal.

True, but a strategic withdrawal isn't. That's why BBEGs in my campaign always have an escape plan.

I wonder, even though players invested so much in their player characters' experience and growth, they still won't consider retreat as an option, then when their PCs dies, they look at their DMs as if he or she is the murderer.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

I remember one situation in which the PCs met with an overwhelming force that had a far better tactical position than we did. The BBEG of the scene told us that they had no beef with us, and just wanted to move on to commit their evil acts. We attacked, and eventually, we were all dropped into negative HP, bleeding and dying, with the sole exception of one. The BBEG explained again that they just want to pass through, and would let us live if we just let them pass.

One of the players of an unconscious, dying PC responded, "Come on, we can take them!"

Thankfully, cooler heads prevailed and the last standing PC yielded and went straight to stabilizing the rest of the party. But, that's the stuff that TPK is made of.

I've always designed my adventures with this never-give-up mentality in mind. Assume that once the players decide on a course of action, nothing will stop them from trying to follow through, despite all evidence to the contrary. Whether it's the fight-or-flight question, or something more RP-based like, "We'll guard the treasure even if we have to break fifty of the king's laws to stick around in the treasure room to do so," I just assume that there is no breaking the players of this notion. Of course, when a player does this, he or she usually blames the DM for railroading or killer DMery when something prevents this course of action anyway.

How do you deal with it? You kind of just let the TPK happen. Figure out how and why the players never give up afterward. Sometimes, they've had a true railroad or killer DM experience in the past--one in which if they did try to retreat, the DM made sure to kill the PCs.

For example, I played in one adventure in which an old "haunted house" was overpopulated with monsters--monsters in every room, essentially. If monsters heard fighting in the next room, they'd join the fray. If you ran, they'd chase you. If you went outside, you'd be struck by lightning (really intense storm was the given reason, but... you were struck by lighting repeatedly if you left). So, if you had difficulty with a small portion of the encounter, then that's it, you were toast.

Play with enough of that kind of adventure will end someone's thought that retreat is an option. Then, you have to recognize it and re-educate... and that's really about all one can do.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Today, only scurvy landlubbers retreat!

Yarr!

 

[kigmatzomat]

Retreat is an option, but sometimes not a good one. The validity of retreat is based on both the characters and the DM.

In one campaign we had a crapload of dwarves (3 of 6 PCs were dwarves). Speed was rarely an option. The fastest we got was when the monk & barbarian would carry the dwarves. Our main methods of escape broke down to lobbing several flasks of oil/alchemist fire and caltrops. That only worked as long as the DM would play the NPCs as unwilling to jump through a wall of fire or pursue after having stepped on a nail.

By the same token, I've had waaaaay too many animals willing to fight to the death over the years. IMO if it isn't a creature with rage, specifically listed as being extremely territorial, or protecting their young, animals should think fleeing, or agreeing to not pursue, is a good idea at ~1/2 hp.

As a GM, I've seen the converse; players who will sink their teeth into a foe that is more than willing to walk away from a fight and force it into a death battle. After a couple of those, I tend to have a frenzied berserker, draconian who explodes when killed, or other "living warhead" creature around. Every so often I'll have the person trying to surrender be an undercover officer of the law, resulting in the players being hunted for their murder. (Mwa-ha-ha! RBDM fun!)

Overall, I think it is up to DMs to have a pre-campaign chat about retreat, surrender, parley (Arrr!) and ransome. I personally love ransome and it is so very rarely used. In a world where it is a fairly common event, ransome should be an appealing option.

By the same token, sometimes highway robbery should be considered a toll for keeping down the monsters. Assuming, of course, the robbers are content to take a small sack of coin and not go for the horses & gear. The greedy robber either moves on quickly or keeps their thefts below the irritiation level of the masses.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Recently my d20 Modern players had to retreat, and in a hurry.

They went into a city to grab medicine and a portable X-Ray machine from a hospital. It's Year Four of the Rising, and that meant zombies would probably be the least of their problems.

The hospital was home to a Wolf Pack (Lord of the Flies on Meth cannibal children) about 15 strong. They held the line long enough to grab the goods, and start to retreat. They dropped hand grenades and PDM's behind them as they retreated, took the stairs and set up a Claymore land mine outside the door of the stairwell, then backed into the ER lobby, laying down covering fire.

Their recovery in a modified ice cream truck waited for them to radio that they were ready, the drove through the front doors. The guy in the mount kept up suppressive fire with the M-60 while the recovery team climbed into the vehicle, and then they got the hell out.

They retreated from a vicious and tenacious foe, but managed to get the job done too.

Another time, they had to retreat from prepared positions when the mob of zombies started overrunning their line. They had to pull a strategic withdrawl from that line back behind the prison walls. It involves "falling back by squads, laying down suppressive fire" in order to make sure that nobody gets slaughtered.


Retreat is not only an option, but sometimes a neccessity.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

To say that retreat is mathematically impossible isn't really a fair statement. Or, if they are, please enlighten me as to why it is so.

Look at the movement rules.

It is pretty normal in D&D for ~1/2 or more your party to have a base move of less than 30' (or less than 120' in 1e/2e). Even everyone having a move of 30' or more is often not sufficient as a hell of a lot of monsters have a 40' or better move.

If you are apparently too weak to stand and fight, there is no obvious reason that those vicious monsters you are afraid of should not pursue. This is really problematic once the brawl has begun where showing weakness and fear should encourage your enemies in most cases.

I have had some successes in retreating.

With restricted space (the narrow corridors of a dungeon) we had enough high AC healthy bodies to hold the battleline and make a fighting retreat, killing the first few attempting to pursue was sufficient inducement to leave us alone.

And then there was the incident where there were overwhelming numbers and we were in the open. We bloodied their sentries and the first wave of reinforcements, but the next wave was clearly going to be much too much for us. So we ran. Being in armor, we found I was much faster if I took off the armor and carried it in my arms. The DM even fudged the rules so that I could cut all the straps and take the armor off quickly. There we had a several round head start, a relatively safe area a few minutes away that our pursuers we afraid to go, and still it was a close call.

The movement rules strongly discourage fleeing. Things are much better in 3e, where at least a PC can buy a potion or two at Ye Olde Magick Shoppe for purposes of emergency escape.

Lots of DMs say that the players should be smarter and flee. But from the other side of the table such "advice" looks flat out wrong.

BBEGs can easily escape with a strategic withdrawal, because it does not take much cleverness to extricate a single character out of a bad situation, especially if you have expendable mooks. The same tactics generally do not work for PCs.

 

[Ralts Bloodthorne]

Tanglefoot bags, Rock to Mud, iron caltrops, showers of arrows, there are a ton of ways to keep foes from chasing wildly after you. Add in haste, fly, expeditious retreat, dimension door, and other such spells, retreating is an option, even if it's a full withdrawl followed by step by step fighting withdrawl.

 

[Arnwyn]

At this point, the "horse" began to drag away Hew Argech's body. The PCs decided to fight the horse.

At any point during the combat, if they'd *stopped* attacking the horse, it would have resumed dragging away its rider's body.

So, how would your group have dealt with this situation? I was giving clues as to how healthy the horse was.

Given the situation above? My players would have retreated, hard and fast.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Tanglefoot bags, Rock to Mud, iron caltrops, showers of arrows, there are a ton of ways to keep foes from chasing wildly after you. Add in haste, fly, expeditious retreat, dimension door, and other such spells, retreating is an option, even if it's a full withdrawl followed by step by step fighting withdrawl.

There are tons of means that might dissuade someone from chasing after you. But anything short of hoarding the right kind and right amount of magics in your back pocket for this rainy day can easily fail. It is not really a given that every party member has a Potion of Fly or the Wizard has a Wand of Dimension Door at 12th or 15th level caster so he can evac the entire party in most campaigns.

We are, after all, talking about an encounter that is too tough for you as the primary scenario, and is probably more mobile than you and knows the lay of the land to boot. If the DM decides that the enemy smells weakness and is determined, anything short of a Teleport can easily fail as more than a temporary measure.

I am not saying that PCs should not try or can never retreat. I think that many players undervalue defensive tactics, and my PCs tend to keep a Potion of Fly and a Potion of Invisibility precisely because I want to keep my options open.

But the RAW in all editions tends to stack the game against retreating. Unless the DM coaches the players along and fudges the rules, do not be surprised if the players seem to believe that retreating is impractical. Yes, that is a dangerous and foolish habit. I would daresay that some DMs inadvertently train their players into never bothering to retreat.

"Gee, if those wolves fight to the last hit point when they could have retreated in this campaign, why should these minotaurs not hunt us all down and slaughter now that they have reason to believe that we are weak?"

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Also, the encounter rules make the players think that every encounter is one they can win, consuming 20% of their resources. They never know they're in over their heads until the first or second PC dies. By then, everyone is scattered, prepared to do their own one trick pony thing, and when the call to withdrawl comes,there si no coordination at all, because players never plan for it as a group. They may have their get-out-of-jail-free cards, but they're optimized for him getting away, not the group. No one ever casts Contingency: Regroup to be cast when I call for retreat and start casting teleport.