Retrieving a potion while grappled

[Nail]

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Activation: Drinking a potion or applying an oil requires no special skill. The user merely removes the stopper and swallows the potion or smears on the oil. The following rules govern potion and oil use.

Drinking a potion or using an oil on an item of gear is a standard action. The potion or oil takes effect immediately. Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. A successful attack (including grappling attacks) against the character forces a Concentration check (as for casting a spell). If the character fails this check, she cannot drink the potion. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container.

You can't even use a potion in a grapple without a standard action and concentration check, much less get one from a backpack or pouch.

 

[geosapient]

The major problem I have with making it a move action with a grapple check (or anything with a grapple check for that matter) is that most people simply will not be able to do it. Most monsters can out-grapple most PCs most of the time. Making retrieving a potion a full round action w/o grapple check at least gives the PC something to do that might conceivably help them save themselves. They still need someone to bail them out, but it at least gives them something to do.

I think the whole point of grappling is to manipulate the other persons actions and damage them at the same time. The best way to keep someone from helping himself is to grapple / pin him. Pinning adds the extra benefit that if they had a weapon you can now use it against them.

 

[TheEvil]

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You can't even use a potion in a grapple without a standard action and concentration check, much less get one from a backpack or pouch.

AoOs are not a problem since grapplers don't threaten.

 

[taliesin15]

Well, I think I'd have to agree with FRanktheDM on this, and I don't think he's being particularly harsh. It just seems sensible, especially considering the monster in question--a giant constricting snake? One caveat one could consider in the course of the grapple check is whether the arms and legs have been pinned. On a number of nature films I've seen, the only times I've seen an animal fight back successfully from a constrictor's attack of this nature is when they've had at least a couple of arms or legs free. Seems to me this should be determined in the course of the grapple check.

Where I differ with Frank is on the potions breaking. Potions come in all sorts of containers (to hell with what the SRD says) and in different size containers. I think the hardness and hit points of materials chart comes into play here. Some containers might be very small and very hard to break. Some are made of glass. IMC, glass is very, very rare.

 

[TheEvil]

Well, I think I'd have to agree with FRanktheDM on this, and I don't think he's being particularly harsh. It just seems sensible, especially considering the monster in question--a giant constricting snake? One caveat one could consider in the course of the grapple check is whether the arms and legs have been pinned. On a number of nature films I've seen, the only times I've seen an animal fight back successfully from a constrictor's attack of this nature is when they've had at least a couple of arms or legs free. Seems to me this should be determined in the course of the grapple check.

Where I differ with Frank is on the potions breaking. Potions come in all sorts of containers (to hell with what the SRD says) and in different size containers. I think the hardness and hit points of materials chart comes into play here. Some containers might be very small and very hard to break. Some are made of glass. IMC, glass is very, very rare.

The problem is, all these attempts at realism just add substantial complexity. If you check for limbs free, then you should also check to see if they got something more unusually important, such as the neck or head. Still torn about it, but since I tend to prefer a more heroic game, I will probably stick with full round action, no grapple check. I think I will rull that a potion belt is required though, since that more fully matches how spell component pouches work. Thanks for your comments everyone!

 

[frankthedm]

The problem is, all these attempts at realism just add substantial complexity. If you check for limbs free, then you should also check to see if they got something more unusually important, such as the neck or head.

The opposed grapple check is exactly what determines if the defender gets/has an appendage lose to retrieve a weapon, possibly a stored item. Succed and retrive the item, fail and the thing has held on tight enough to prevent that from happening.

On a related note, here is an equipment idea that came from those dissatisfied with only weapons being able to be drawn as a move action combinable with another move action. The dagger is less than optimal for combat since the tang is sacrificed for a potion vial, protected by the wood and metal handle.

 

[frankthedm]

If the potion is stored so that it can be easily drawn like a weapon, such as in a beilt loop, it could be retrieved using the "draw a light weapon" action - a move action which requires a grapple check.

Calling a potion vial a weaponlike object feels a bit of stretch IMO.

Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.

If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.

Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.

 

[MarkB]

Calling a potion vial a weaponlike object feels a bit of stretch IMO.

In the context of the "draw a weapon" action, I have always considered 'weaponlike' to mean 'sufficiently conveniently sized and shaped to be drawn with an action similar to that of drawing a weapon'. It seems the most sensible interpretation.

A potion vial could easily be stored in a small sheath and drawn in a manner similar to drawing a dagger, so it fulfills the requirement.

 

[Thramzorean]

The SRD is fairly clear here about using magic items while grappled:
Activate a Magic Item: You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require a spell completion trigger. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.

How you then rule in this case the retrieving of the item is, I think, reasonable to follow MarkB's suggestion for getting a light weapon. The issue here is that the ruling needs to be fairly general and applicable to other cases e.g. drawing a wand, and keeping the case to general examples makes the process more streamlined and easy to apply. Drawing a light weapon is a good precident for the process.

Then you have a concentration check to drink the potion DC 20 for being grappled. This is itself is not easy. Generally only spell casters will have the skill ranks and/or feat to assist with this so you have built into the system a pretty tough restriction to start with and I don't think you need to get too complicated with the adjudication process.