D&D (2024) Return to the 3 saves for 1D&D?

Horwath

Legend
PCs with unusually high ACs and paladins with a big boost to all saves impact the game far more than characters investing in saves.

Magic shield bonuses bracers of defence and rings of protection should not stack with other magic bonuses. Paladins bonuses to saves should be halved.
agree with most.

Paladin aura should give +1 bonus when you get it, +2 at 11th level, +3 at 17th level.
aura range should be increased, 30ft at start, 60ft when improved.

armors and shields should not have +X bonus to AC, only unique cool features.
+X might add damage reduction instead.
instead of +1 AC, you get 2 damage reduction from every attack.

weapons should not have +X attack and +X damage bonus.
instead add +Xd6 damage only.
 

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Olrox17

Hero
Your example uses a very specific spell - psychic scream, and one that is not on any published monster's spell list as far as I am aware.

In terms of specific, I think there are far, far more parties with Wizards and Paladins than there are parties that get psychic scream cast at them. Probably something on the order of 100 to 1 or more.

Finally, 8 different classes can cast dispel magic and 3 different classes can cast counterspell (not counting Rogue and Fighter subclasses that can cast them). So I think it is a safe bet you have those spells in most parties.

High level characters very rarely die and they have high level abilities and high level spells which as a group more than compensate for the adversaries abilities and spells.
I think you're getting yourself hanged on very specific examples (especially the Psychic Scream one for some reason? I think the example involving multitudes of low CR enemies using low level control spell was way more interesting, I've dismantled optimized and cocky parties with easy encounters using that strategy), and you're losing sight of the bigger picture.

As other posters have already pointed out, the Attack vs AC - damage vs HP game works well enough in 5e. AC scales less than attack rolls at higher levels, but regardless, even if attack rolls completely eclipsed AC, it still wouldn't be a huge problem: weapon attacks generally do damage, and very little else. HPs usually scale enough to keep up with damage, so that part of the game tends to be balanced enough.

Saving throws...nope. DCs growth will completely eclipse saving throw growth, and, even worse, saving throw are often of the "Save or Suck" variety, with no secondary mechanic to balance things out (like damage/HP does to Attack roll/AC). For monsters and PCs alike the situation can often be that you get to roll one save, with a 5-10% chance of success, and you'll be removed from a fight if you fail. That. Is. Not. Good. Balance.

Tbh, and I mean no offense, it looks like you either never DMed high level 5e, or you're so used to fixing the bad mechanics by yourself (as a good DM should) that you no longer see them as issues.
 

partially, I agree.

but STR weapons are still too weak in comparison to DEX weapons.
and DEX has better utility vs. STR.

Strength:
melee and thrown attack and damage
str saves
1 skill
carry capacity

dexterity:
finesse and ranged attack and damage
dex saves
3 skills
AC
initiative

even if you value bot groups of weapons as equal(they are not), dex gets stronger save, 3 skills vs 1 skill, AC calculation in most cases, initiative bonus, versus STR carry capacity.

non-finesse weapons need to deal more damage.

I partially agree, but strenght twf is better than dex twf and it is also used in AC, by allowing better armor. And you forget active grapple attempts.
Having only 1 skill is actually an advantage, as it is a so universal skill.
Also, if youbare strength based, you feel much less pressure to max it ASAP, as you only lose out on the offense (this is why the twf feat is better for strength characters, while it is mostly useless for dex characters).
 

Saving throws...nope. DCs growth will completely eclipse saving throw growth, and, even worse, saving throw are often of the "Save or Suck" variety, with no secondary mechanic to balance things out (like damage/HP does to Attack roll/AC). For monsters and PCs alike the situation can often be that you get to roll one save, with a 5-10% chance of success, and you'll be removed from a fight if you fail. That. Is. Not. Good. Balance.

Yes, there should be no fail initial save or totally suck spell. Saving throw bonus as tgey are right now only work for scaling the duration. One save and out of combat spells need to be rebalanced.
 

agree with most.

Paladin aura should give +1 bonus when you get it, +2 at 11th level, +3 at 17th level.
aura range should be increased, 30ft at start, 60ft when improved.

armors and shields should not have +X bonus to AC, only unique cool features.
+X might add damage reduction instead.
instead of +1 AC, you get 2 damage reduction from every attack.

weapons should not have +X attack and +X damage bonus.
instead add +Xd6 damage only.

Paladin aura usually does not give more than +3, except when you have a hexadin.
Probably making it half proficiency bonus though would be a great idea.

I do like +x weapons. They are not gamebreaking on their own. Currently the only way to make sword and board useful is the duble dip on magic armor bonuses. With power feats removed, it is probably not needed anymore.
 

Horwath

Legend
Paladin aura usually does not give more than +3, except when you have a hexadin.
Probably making it half proficiency bonus though would be a great idea.
I don't know if +3 would be the limit for me.

I'm looking now at half-elf paladin with Fey touched feat(silvery barbs+misty step) at 4th level and at 8th level +2 cha for that +5 to all saves and lots of spells prepared for added versatility and DCs

str 16, save +8
dex 8, save +4
con 14, save +7
int 10, save +5
wis 10, save +8
cha 20, save +13

I do like +x weapons. They are not gamebreaking on their own. Currently the only way to make sword and board useful is the duble dip on magic armor bonuses. With power feats removed, it is probably not needed anymore.
shield+armor both gaining +X can lead to some problems.
+1 plate and +1 shield with +1 for defense fighting style goes to AC 23.
if DM is looking for a decent challenge, and if they aim for at least 40% hit chance vs. you(13+), other party members will be hammered with their decent and expected AC of 17 or 18. with AC 18 hit chance will be 65%, they will be getting 63% more damage than you.

not to mention that casters have their AC in 14 to 16 range.

I believe that DM has easiest time when party AC difference in 4 or less form lowest to highest AC.

in one campaign we have a Sorcerer with AC 16(mage armor 24/7 and 16 dex), Bladesinger wizard AC 16(dex 18 + studded leather, or 17 with mage armor) and Barbarian with mithral halfplate AC 17. Perfect.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Of course applying strength bonuses to all dex weapons except crossbows might work. Cap bonus to +2 on a shortbow. Bonus on xbow depends on size.
 

I don't know if +3 would be the limit for me.

I'm looking now at half-elf paladin with Fey touched feat(silvery barbs+misty step) at 4th level and at 8th level +2 cha for that +5 to all saves and lots of spells prepared for added versatility and DCs

str 16, save +8
dex 8, save +4
con 14, save +7
int 10, save +5
wis 10, save +8
cha 20, save +13


shield+armor both gaining +X can lead to some problems.
+1 plate and +1 shield with +1 for defense fighting style goes to AC 23.
if DM is looking for a decent challenge, and if they aim for at least 40% hit chance vs. you(13+), other party members will be hammered with their decent and expected AC of 17 or 18. with AC 18 hit chance will be 65%, they will be getting 63% more damage than you.

not to mention that casters have their AC in 14 to 16 range.

I believe that DM has easiest time when party AC difference in 4 or less form lowest to highest AC.

in one campaign we have a Sorcerer with AC 16(mage armor 24/7 and 16 dex), Bladesinger wizard AC 16(dex 18 + studded leather, or 17 with mage armor) and Barbarian with mithral halfplate AC 17. Perfect.

I tend to agree. The balance was that virtually nobody actually tanked up that much, because if all you have is AC and no offense, you are just ignored and kileld last.

I think having at least no +x shields and removal of imbalanced feats makes the game better. You can still tank up a bit with +2 to AC and a neat bonus and you won't fall too much behind in damage of you chose one hand + shield a s barbarian or fighter for example.
 

Of course applying strength bonuses to all dex weapons except crossbows might work. Cap bonus to +2 on a shortbow. Bonus on xbow depends on size.
there used to be 'mighty composite' bows that let you add your Str to damage (not to hit) and had an increased cost per + of str allowed... I know they were in 2e I can't remember if 3e had them (I think they did). I know there was a third party 3e book that had a mechanical assist bow that just added to damage...
 

Horwath

Legend
there used to be 'mighty composite' bows that let you add your Str to damage (not to hit) and had an increased cost per + of str allowed... I know they were in 2e I can't remember if 3e had them (I think they did). I know there was a third party 3e book that had a mechanical assist bow that just added to damage...
they were in 3.5e also.

I would add them into 5e, but I would keep dex to damage also.

"mighty" bows could be:

d4: Str n/a range 50/200
d6: Str 8 range 100/400
d8: Str 12, range 150/600
d10: Str 16, range 200/800
d12: Str 20, range 250/1000

add dex normally to attack and damage.

this way you need at least 12 strength to use "default" bow.

it is also a good option for STR charctars with decent dex(barbarian/ melee rangers)

with +3 prof and 20 str and 14 dex, you could have:

thrown weapon with +8 attack and 1d6+5 damage with 30/120 range or
longbow with +5 attack and 1d12+2 damage with 250/1000 range.

trading attack roll for range.


and if you have both STR and DEX at 20 for 1d12+5 damage at 250ft, congratulations, you have earned it.
Now lets talk about your other dump stats and no feats to speak of.
 

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