(reverse) Engineering a Rogue?

[Ruined]

Anyone tried to combine the rules from D&D Insider displaying the rogue class with the existing characters that have surfaced from Experience? I'm thinking about trying my hand at it, but wanted to see if someone had done the work already?

(and a huge thanks to everyone for posting and cobbling together the rules thus far)

 

[bganon]

I've done a little reverse engineering, but it's often hard to tell what could be coming from racial bonuses. Also, I'm pretty sure we have no idea how weapon proficiency really works.

That said:

Fighter
Key ability: STR
Armor Training: at least Scale
Weapon prof: at least Handaxe, maybe Warhammer (could be dwarven)
Defense bonus: +2 Fort, (+2 Ref is probably from shield)
HP at 1st lev: 15 + Con score
Healing surges: 9 + Con mod
Class skills: at least Endurance, Heal, and Streetwise
Build options: maybe none other than power selection?
Class features: Combat challenge, Combat superiority

Paladin
Key Ability: CHA, maybe WIS?
Armor Training: at least Plate
Weapon prof: at least Short-sword (throwing hammer seems to have a lower bonus?)
Defense bonus: at least +2 Will (probably +2 Ref is from shield and +1 All from racial)
HP at 1st lev: 15 + Con score
Healing surges: 10 + Con mod
Class skills: at least Diplomacy (could be racial?), Heal, Insight, Religion
Build options: choice of patron god might affect Channel Divinity features?
Class features: Divine Challenge, Lay on Hands, Channel Divinity: Divine Strength, Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle

Cleric
Key Ability: WIS
Armor Training: at least Chainmail
Weapon prof: at least Dagger (mace has a lower bonus?)
Defense bonus: at least +2 Will (+1 All from racial?)
HP at 1st lev: 12 + Con score
Healing surges: 7 + Con mod
Class skills: at least Arcana, Heal, History (bonus human?), Insight, Religion
Build options: choice of patron god might affect all of the features (other than Ritual casting)?
Class features: Ritual Casting, Turn Undead, Healing Word, Channel Divinity: Divine Fortune
The example Cleric has 3 at-will powers instead of the normal 2!

Ranger
Key Ability: DEX
Armor Training: at least Hide
Weapon prof: at least Longbow, Longsword (may be racial)
Defense bonus: +1 All (slightly odd?)
HP at 1st lev: 12 + Con score
Healing surges: 6 + Con mod
Class skills: at least Acrobatics, Athletics, History (racial?), Nature, Perception, Stealth
Build options: choose a special feat???
Class features: none? but has an extra feat (Lethal Hunter) that gives Hunter's Quarry

Warlock
Key Ability: CHA
Armor Training: at least Leather
Weapon prof: at least Dagger
Defense bonus: +1 Will, +1 Ref
HP at 1st lev: 12 + Con score
Healing surges: 6 + Con mod
Class Skills: at least Bluff, Insight, Streetwise, Thievery
Build options: pact choice
Class features: Fey Pact, Prime Shot, Shadow Walk, Warlock's Curse
The example Warlock has an extra at-will power from the Wizard list, and doesn't seem to have taken a feat to gain it!

Wizard
Key Ability: INT
Armor Training: none?
Weapon prof: at least Dagger
Defense bonus: +2 Will
HP at 1st lev: 10 + Con score
Healing surges: 6 + Con mod
Class Skills: at least Arcana, History, Nature
Build options: implement choice?
Class Features: Arcane Implement Mastery (wand), Cantrips, Ritual Casting, Spellbook

 

[bganon]

More thoughts on weapons:

Weapon attacks typically seem to be getting an extra +2 or +3. How much is from proficiency and how much is from the weapon itself is unknown. My guess is any item constructed to be a weapon gives a +2 to attack (possibly dependent on quality), and proficiency gives another +1.

I noticed that the "Staff of the War Mage" magic item is specifically called an implement. I'm guessing that means if you actually try to use it as a weapon (like a quarterstaff) you don't get the +2 and can't use weapon powers with it. And possibly other penalties. Unarmed attacks may work similarly. But this is all speculation.

 

[shadowguidex]

I've done a little reverse engineering, but it's often hard to tell what could be coming from racial bonuses. Also, I'm pretty sure we have no idea how weapon proficiency really works.

Accurate Weapon Proficiency (Dagger, Rapier, etc) gives +3 Attack Rolls
Normal Weapon Proficiencies (Short Sword, Long Bow, Maces) gives +2 Attack Rolls
Inaccurate Weapon Proficiencies (Axes, Hammers) gives +1 Attack Rolls

Accurate weapons do less damage but hit more often, and inaccurate weapons to more damage but hit less often. These attack bonuses also compensate for the additional armor class since armor class is essentially Reflex plus armor as follows:

Cloth = 1
Leather = 2
Hide = 3
Chain = 4
Scale = 5
Plate = 6

Weapon prof: at least Short-sword (throwing hammer seems to have a lower bonus?)

Hammers aren't as accurate as Short Swords. Short Swords are normal +2, and Hammers are Inaccurate +1

Weapon prof: at least Dagger (mace has a lower bonus?)

Again, Dagger is accurate +3, and Mace is Normal +2

The example Cleric has 3 at-will powers instead of the normal 2!

Humans probably get an extra at-will at level 1

The example Warlock has an extra at-will power from the Wizard list, and doesn't seem to have taken a feat to gain it!

Definitely a Half-Elf ability. Half-Elves are high adaptable and can choose a class power from another class at level one.

Also, Warlocks will have to choose the type of power source. The listed warlock choose Fey, but other options will be demonic, etc, and their powers will be highly reflective of that decision, just like clerics choice of deity, rogue (Brawn or Speed) and warriors (S/S, 2H, 2W, etc) choice of style, and wizards choice of implement. Rangers likely choose Bows or TWF. Paladins choose good or evil?? (guessing)

 

[bganon]

Accurate Weapon Proficiency (Dagger, Rapier, etc) gives +3 Attack Rolls
Normal Weapon Proficiencies (Short Sword, Long Bow, Maces) gives +2 Attack Rolls
Inaccurate Weapon Proficiencies (Axes, Hammers) gives +1 Attack Rolls

Accurate weapons do less damage but hit more often, and inaccurate weapons to more damage but hit less often. These attack bonuses also compensate for the additional armor class since armor class is essentially Reflex plus armor as follows:

I suspect you're on to something. Then the Halfling is getting an extra +1 from size, and the dwarf is getting an extra +2 from the weapon training feat (or the feat means she can consider the warhammer an accurate weapon)?

I agree that the extra powers are probably Human and Half-Elf racial abilities. Look at all the free powers other races get!

I'm confused by the ranger, because he hardly has any class features and doesn't seem to have made any kind of bow/TWF choice other than power selection. I'm thinking maybe there aren't distinct paths anymore, and Rangers can mix it up.

And the fighter's choice of style appears to be purely in how they select powers. Also, none of the fighter powers mention that they're specific to a weapon type, but maybe they just left that out for simplicity.

 

[Voss]

Most of the classes are working on multiple key ability scores- 3, to be exact, with one primary and 2 secondary, one of which you may be able to neglect.

Rogue is the perfect example: Dex, and then str & chr.

Warlock seems to be Cha, then Con and ? I hope int, otherwise grabbing that wizard power is really foolish. Basis- misty step teleports 3 squares, same as Con Mod.

Cleric- Wisdom, Str and Cha.
lance of faith gives allies a +2 bonus. I think thats str. Divine Fortune, gives a +1, I suspect charisma. Cause fear and sacred flame may be getting their 2 squares 2 temp hp from strength as well.

Fighter- Str, Con, and ? Wisdom or dex

Paladin- Cha, wis and str

Ranger- Dex, wis?, str? Fox's cunning is probably coming from wisdom

Wizard- Int, wis? dex? Not sure. Wis is actually based on the golden wyvern adept feat from a long time back.

 

[arscott]

I do think that some of those bonuses are just flat bonuses, rather than bonuses derived from ability scores.

 

[shadowguidex]

I do think that some of those bonuses are just flat bonuses, rather than bonuses derived from ability scores.

Nope, all derived from Ability Score Modifiers.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Most of the classes are working on multiple key ability scores- 3, to be exact, with one primary and 2 secondary, one of which you may be able to neglect.

Rogue is the perfect example: Dex, and then str & chr.

...

Wizard- Int, wis? dex? Not sure. Wis is actually based on the golden wyvern adept feat from a long time back.

How will this interact with the obvious optimization route of having three good stats covering the three defenses. The Rogue's Str, Dex and Chr covers all three, but the two builds in the preview have other options: the Brawny Rogue could go Str, Dex and Wis, and the Trickster Con, Dex and Cha. The example paladin has good Wis and Cha but poor Dex and Int - is this deliberate poor optimization of the character or is it something to balance the paladin? The designers will have foreseen that players will want to optimize defenses, so maybe the choice of which characteristics a class needs is a part of class balance.