Review of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Yeah, well, be that as it may, it's hardly likely to win 2 Ennies, including Best Game, or anything.

 

[Jonny Nexus]

Well clearly the people who vote for the Ennies are just a bunch of elitist D20 haters.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

that is very true. as a matter of fact, to some extent, D&D has a wider gray scale palette for monsters. orcs might be riding the village because they are evil, or maybe because some horrible monster pushed them out of their caves and now they are starving... i have played many D&D campaigns where the players had to make some tough moral call.
in warhammer, there is not such need. orcs, goblins, dragons, beasts of chaos... they are all evil, and they all want to kill everybody for gore's sake.

I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding.

First a minor point - it is made rather clear from the source material that dragons are not out to kill everyone. In fact, it is even possible to converse with some of them and live to tell it if you are exceedingly polite (and possibly bring some nice gifts for its hoard).


And about "Good" and "Evil" in the Warhammer world... I tend to see these as purely human concepts (and possibly of that of the other near-human races, like halflings, dwarfs, and elves, though that point could be argued). "Good" is someone who generally works for improving the lot of his fellow humans, and "evil" is someone always looks out for his own self-interest first, without regard how that might affect other people.

Goblins and orcs, on the other hand, are neither "Good" nor "Evil", though they might appear to be the latter to most humans. Instead, they are off the scale altogether. They are alien life forms with alien thought processes who just happen to have some rough physiological similarities to humans and compete for the same living space. The fight between them and humans (and dwarfs and elves, for that matter) is not a struggle between "Light" and "Dark", but simply a Darwinian struggle for survival. They can't co-exist at the same place for any length of time, so most simply try to kill the other without losing any sleep about it.

In a way, the same thing goes for Chaos. The four Powers of Chaos present concepts and urges that are an intrinsic part of humanity - in fact, without these urges, humanity wouldn't be able to grow and prosper like it has. What presents the danger to humanity is that giving oneself over to these powers means giving up any restraints in following these urges.

Most human cultists of these entities are evil (though not all), since their lack of restraint does hurt their fellow humans. But the true Gods of Chaos, as well as their demons and chaos spawn, are too alien to be truly "evil". Even with mutants and beastmen it is the remaining human part that makes them evil, and not the chaos in their hearts and bodies.

 

[Ian Sturrock]

Yeah, well, be that as it may, it's hardly likely to win 2 Ennies, including Best Game, or anything.

And likewise the Old World Bestiary would never get a look-in at the ENnies. I mean, who would vote to give an ENnie award to a Best Adversary/Monster Product that doesn't even tell you how many magic items you can loot from the dead monsters?!?

 

[Spell]

I think this is a bit of a misunderstanding.

First a minor point - it is made rather clear from the source material that dragons are not out to kill everyone. In fact, it is even possible to converse with some of them and live to tell it if you are exceedingly polite (and possibly bring some nice gifts for its hoard).

you may very well be right on this... i never used dragons in my campaigns (D&D or whatever), so i might have skipped their description altogether.

my point, thought, is that monsters are considered evil, not because they are inherently so, but just because my perception of the warhammer world is that humans and... ehm... demihuman races tend to think that if something is menacing their communities, then it's evil, and has no other purpose than creating them problems.
of course that might not be written in the rules... but after some time, talking about the flavour of a campaign world, i tend to forget what's on the book and what has been just in my campaign, especially if it was from day one!

on the evilness of chaos: i tend to ignore what real purpose gods have, and concentrate on the repercussion they have in the campaign world.
let's take an example out of real world. sex is natural and is necessary for the well being of the human race, BUT for centuries (and, in some circles, even now) it has been related with filthiness, amorality, and so on. sex made for reproduction was tolerated because it was necessary. everything that was not aimed at reproduction was seen as evil and corrupt, because of the moral teaching of the church.

now, the gods of chaos might not be evil per se, but that is the way they are perceived by most bystanders in the old world. again, maybe it's something that i enforced on my campaign and it is not really explicit in the books... but it does make sense, if you consider that warhammer should be a fantasy paralled of our world.

 

[Spell]

I mean, who would vote to give an ENnie award to a Best Adversary/Monster Product that doesn't even tell you how many magic items you can loot from the dead monsters?!?

well, i did, but i'm obviously a fanboy...

Ian, can I ask you if you can speculate on what is keeping Black Industries from publishing bigger hardbacks rules, or to have slimmer books out as paperbacks? i think both way would be great to reduce the costs and/ or to give more value for money to the buying public (i.e. me! )

 

[Ian Sturrock]

Ian, can I ask you if you can speculate on what is keeping Black Industries from publishing bigger hardbacks rules, or to have slimmer books out as paperbacks? i think both way would be great to reduce the costs and/ or to give more value for money to the buying public (i.e. me! )

Sorry, I don't have any contact with anyone at Black Industries to find out -- my work on the OWB for them was done through Green Ronin.

 

[Spell]

Sorry, I don't have any contact with anyone at Black Industries to find out -- my work on the OWB for them was done through Green Ronin.

thanks anyway.

 

[Graf]

Um, you're aware that there's a new edition out, right? One that has been selling extremely well since it was released earlier this year (behind only 3e and WoD)? One that is attracting new players? And that Dancey's review was of this new edition, and not the out-of-print one?

I had noted all that. As I am sure you could tell from reading my post and the quote.
As my friends complain quite loudly about the lengths of my posts I have been trying hard to edit down the extranious or obvious points.
It does make an easier target for people who think we're playing some kind of message board verson of Quake though.

In other words, your claim that the system 'isn't being developed' is, ummm, flat wrong!

Sorry if I hit a sore point....

I'm probably showing my age, but I think about stuff that happened in the last few months in the roleplaying game world as basically having "just happened". When I was playing WFR in HS the DM had just the one (battered and aging) book I think he'd inherited from his older brother.
The 12+ years between then and now saw Hogshead struggling to get out a few books probably but it didn't feel much like development, which discouraged groups who didn't want to make things up whole hog themselves.

I think my point that: at this point in time, due to things that include limited developement of the line over many years, the number of people who play more WFR is a small fraction of those who play DnD: is correct.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the new WFR developes. Whether its economically viable for GR to continue to product a new line of product, etc, or not.

In some ways I think it has to find a new player base and or attract back the people who had positive experiences in the past from DnD. It won't be viable with the existing fanbase (i.e. the one that existed prior to the printing of the new edition).

IIRC people always raved about WFR adventures, I think GR may be able to do something there.

 

[Akrasia]

... In some ways I think it has to find a new player base and or attract back the people who had positive experiences in the past from DnD. It won't be viable with the existing fanbase (i.e. the one that existed prior to the printing of the new edition). ...

The fact that WFRP is the third best selling RPG around (and just picked up 3 gold Ennies) suggests to me that it is finding a 'new player base' quite well.