D&D 4E Revised 4E Wizard Class with Freeform Spellcasting System

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Keenberg!

I like that itemized lists of benefits. I hadn't realized some of them with the first reading.

Well... depends on the player. I would expect the very nature of the system to foster creativity. However, some might still get stuck in a rut, find one thing they like and use it repeatedly, or be lazy.

I was actually talking about designers not players (I should have specified).

How many powers in the PHB are virtually the same but higher level? Or with a minor tweak. Each new power in the PHB is an extra 10 lines of space.

I haven't read supplementary 4E Wizard books but how many "new" powers are just old powers given a minor facelift.

I'm still seeing this one more complicated than the 4e system.

I remember when 4E came out people thought the At-Will/Encounter/Daily paradigm was more complicated. But once they familiarised themselves with it, the system became second nature.

4e: Pick a new spell when I level up. No more thought except in battles when I pick and choose what to pew-pew, and the mechanics of the spell are right there. (Let me say that the restrictions of this system next to yours are starting to feel disgusting!)

Thanks for the wonderful compliment.

Revised: Okay... time to pew-pew... What energy type? Well, are there energy resistances? Glad I can choose! Okay, let's use thunder. Do I want a condition? Well the fighter is up there so lets give him some help and knock the beast prone... but now I'm not doing damage? Well, it looks like if I send it as a ray, I can get the damage dice back!

Incidently, I am thinking that I'll change the second draft as follows:

Wizard knows all Energy Types = d4 damage
4 Energy Types = d6 damage
2 Energy Types = d8 damage
1 Energy Type = d10 damage

(Did I just find a way to subvert the mechanics?)

No. Thats how it should work, you want Wizard players to "feel" like they are a wizard by using their intelligence to shape the spells to best suit the circumstances. You can just (be lazy and) pick energy type + condition + delivery system and cast the spell, or you can play it smart tailor your spell to the situation. Its such a rewarding mechanic.

I'm gonna make myself a note for this combination, seems powerful, and I may want to use it again...

So you are saying a particular player might make a note of their favourite combinations...writing them down in a (spell) book perhaps...?

I mean can it get any more perfect!

Cool, and not cool IMO, like I was talking about in point 7.

The great thing about this approach is that even if you find a favourite spell to cast (Hey it worked for Bigby!). Your favourite At-Will won't be the same as Encounter or Daily. Plus once the number of dice increases (as you level up) you'll want to experiment again.

Repeat every round. So coo because of the inherent creativity and the tangible feel of spell-casting, but when you factor in the organic nature of battle mechanics, I can imagine times when thinking of the most strategic use of spells would slow things down, complicating the fight rather than simplifying it.

Again though, lets say a player finds a spell attack they like to use and they use it most of the time...how is that any different than 4E already with its limited options? Plus, no single spell will be the best option in every circumstance, but, unlike the official wizard class, this freeform spellcasting system gives you the option to not only change on the fly, but also actually rewards a player for using their intelligence.

Imagine that! People who want to play a wizard are rewarded by the mechanics of the game for being smart!

I'm not concerned in the slightest about this point. MU classes have always seemed to me to be a little bit more complicated than non-MUs, and a bit better suited for experienced players or serious players.

Agreed. The system is about as simple as you'd want spellcaster to be.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Quickleaf!

I like it a lot.

Thanks!

Though there are some quirks which require more DM adjudication. For example, a 3-damage type specialist casting a ranged 1st level at-will for 2d12 damage. Overall I think these are great guidelines, but I'd watch power-gamers like a hawk.

This is the first draft, I will be making various balance tweaks for a version 2.0.

At the very least that will include:

Wizard knows all Energy Types = d4 damage
4 Energy Types = d6 damage
2 Energy Types = d8 damage
1 Energy Type = d10 damage

I am sure there will be other changes once I take in all the feedback.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Nice system, U_K.

Thanks RW!

In the Elements of Magic - Revised system back in 3.5, we balanced flexibility with speed by requiring players to make signature spells. You could cast a signature spell as a standard action, or you could spend two standard actions (over two rounds) to craft and cast a spell on the fly.

That usually led to players sticking with their pre-designed spells, but gave them flexibility to do something special in a pinch. Of course, the system had a LOT more options, broken down into 10 spell types:

Attack
Charm
Create
Cure
Defend
Divine
Illusion
Move
Summon
Transform

You could change signature spells each day; basically it represented you practicing certain moves so you could do them quickly.

Sounds pretty neat.

The reason for the simplicity of my system here is that I have not yet attended to the Utility powers. Once that is addressed I think the amount of options will be astronomical.

Plus it will be even more interesting when I tie Ritual Spellcasting into the whole mix. I'll need to get Radiation in there as an epic energy type so that I can have a Ritual casting of the Rain of Colourless Fire.

I've got a few different ideas in mind for tweaking magic in a 4e-inspired system. You've inspired me to write them up.

Glad to have helped.

I will be doing a version of the Rogue and the Cleric on the website within the next week or so as time allows. The cleric has completely different Delivery Systems to the Wizard, plus the Clerics Spells are "Friendly", so I have really tried to push the differences between the two classes.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey On Puget Sound!

Overall I like it a lot,

Thanks.

but my wizard could not use it (enchantment/ illusion, focused on making opponents attack each other), since dominate is not available until epic tier. Then again, my wizard could probably have been a bard.

I may have been a bit harsh on Dominate, it should probably be a lower Tier than epic.

I will be going over various balance issues when I update the Wizard class with version 2.0 once I have taken in all the feedback.

 

[On Puget Sound]

Perhaps a "target makes a basic attack against a creature the caster chooses" can be a Heroic-level effect for Psychic, with a -2 dice modifier? Then a "move and make an attack" at paragon, and full dominate at epic.

I was also wondering if some effects might be available as dailies in heroic, encounters in paragon, and dailies at epic level.

I don't think "save ends" effects should ever be at-wills, at any tier.

 

[Keenberg]

How many powers in the PHB are virtually the same but higher level? Or with a minor tweak. Each new power in the PHB is an extra 10 lines of space. I haven't read supplementary 4E Wizard books but how many "new" powers are just old powers given a minor facelift.

True. To me it felt like a realistic representation of powers scaling up, which is present in the revised system because as you level you get more dice (and therefore options to add cool effects to the spells.)

I remember when 4E came out people thought the At-Will/Encounter/Daily paradigm was more complicated. But once they familiarised themselves with it, the system became second nature.

I'll concede that point. infact, as I was writing the narrative, I felt like I was quite quickly becoming familiar with the mechanics. I consider this a good thing.

So you are saying a particular player might make a note of their favourite combinations...writing them down in a (spell) book perhaps...?

I mean can it get any more perfect!

People who want to play a wizard are rewarded by the mechanics of the game for being smart!

Immersive. I like it. Really gets you into the shoes of the PC.

The great thing about this approach is that even if you find a favourite spell to cast (Hey it worked for Bigby!). Your favourite At-Will won't be the same as Encounter or Daily. Plus once the number of dice increases (as you level up) you'll want to experiment again.

hadn't considered the full repercussions of how spells would change with leveling. This point of yours brought it into perspective. Very cool.

Incidently, I am thinking that I'll change the second draft as follows:

Wizard knows all Energy Types = d4 damage (snip)

change on the fly (snip)

I wrote up the narrative to describe how the spell-casting process isn't actually simplified. Yes, the crunch is simplified, but not the combat practice.

4e: Here's your spells-pick one. Done.
Revised: Time to cast a spell. Think it out for a while. Work through the steps. Consider a wealth of options before coming to your decision.

Even if it came down making the choice between using one in my "spellbook" or crafting a new one, that is still more thought than with 4e, So, more complicated. Not a bad thing IMO, but a very neat option. I like that crunch disappears and options open up at the same time.

 

[Keenberg]

Let me be the first to nominate this as the 5e/New Horizons spell-casting system for wizards and mages (at least).

 

[Saagael]

As much as this is a cool idea, the only thing I could think of when reading it is why would anyone ever play anything other than a wizard if using this system? Martial characters don't have half as much of this flexibility (though I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to make a martial version of this system), and it makes wizards super-powered, even compared to their current status.

Who needs a defender when you have 2 wizards who can daze and knock prone in an area burst 1 at level 1? Add in one more who's dedicated to sliding around to group everyone up and you shouldn't even need a dedicated leader.

My second concern is that I would hate to have to keep looking this sheet up while in combat. The beauty of the AEDU system is that it takes most of the big choices and places them out of combat. 16 pages of powers becomes 1 page at any given level, and while in combat, there's 4 or 5 powers to choose from (again, at level 1).

This system takes all the heavy choices and puts them right in the middle of combat, and feels like it would add a whole heap of slow-down on the wizard's turn. Maybe its 'cause I'm not used to it, that could be the case, but I only see two outcomes: either the wizard takes up extra time on their turn to weigh 10,000 options, or they stick with only a handful of combinations. With the former, combat slows down, and with the later, you've got a hyper-optimized version of the power system.

While a great idea (and I want don't want you to think my criticism means I don't like the idea), this version of the system seems to limit power usage to me. There's lots of options, but you end up seeing the damage and status effects instead of the cinematic effect of using powers. In the right hands it'd be a really cool system, but I think most players would fall into the "I do X damage with Y status effect", rather than get creative.

 

[Keenberg]

As much as this is a cool idea, the only thing I could think of when reading it is why would anyone ever play anything other than a wizard if using this system? Martial characters don't have half as much of this flexibility (though I'm thinking it wouldn't be too hard to make a martial version of this system), and it makes wizards super-powered, even compared to their current status.

Who needs a defender when you have 2 wizards who can daze and knock prone in an area burst 1 at level 1? Add in one more who's dedicated to sliding around to group everyone up and you shouldn't even need a dedicated leader.

Check out his webpage, he has ylthe fighter overhaul up too. The idea is that all classes would be fundamentally different and more flexible. As to who would need supporting characters, have you forgotten how squishy wizards are? Wizards need non-wizards to keep them from getting killed. Doing a knock-prone burst at level one does no damage, so it doesn't progress the PC through the battle if that is all he does. Eventually, a monster is going to get to the wizard(s) and lay him/them low.

My second concern is that I would hate to have to keep looking this sheet up while in combat.

So print it out/make a photocopy from the PHB. It then replaces a good portion of the traditional character sheet.

This system takes all the heavy choices and puts them right in the middle of combat, feels like it would add a whole heap of slow-down on the wizard's turn. Maybe its 'cause I'm not used to it

These things are what I've been saying in previous posts. The uptake is fast for designing spells though. The other concern comes with the territory of all the creativity and flexibility of the system.

While a great idea (and I want don't want you to think my criticism means I don't like the idea), this version of the system seems to limit power usage to me. There's lots of options, but you end up seeing the damage and status effects instead of the cinematic effect of using powers. In the right hands it'd be a really cool system, but I think most players would fall into the "I do X damage with Y status effect", rather than get creative.

That is all player perogative. Try this: imagine a combat scenario and be the wizard. Use the system to craft a strategically worthy spell. Tell me if you don't end up with a cool-looking picture in your mind's eye even as a result of trying to power game. And when you're done, see if the system doesn't seem any more natural.

 

[Saagael]

Check out his webpage, he has ylthe fighter overhaul up too. The idea is that all classes would be fundamentally different and more flexible.

Cool, didn't see this. Will check it out.

As to who would need supporting characters, have you forgotten how squishy wizards are? Wizards need non-wizards to keep them from getting killed. Doing a knock-prone burst at level one does no damage, so it doesn't progress the PC through the battle if that is all he does. Eventually, a monster is going to get to the wizard(s) and lay him/them low.

Not if this wizard duo can daze, prone, immobilize, and/or blind the baddies every turn, they won't get to them. And that still leaves 2 wizards to do nothing but damage. Still, maybe I've become jaded after running so many games with power-gamers. I'll concede that for casual and RP heavy groups, you're probably right.

So print it out/make a photocopy from the PHB. It then replaces a good portion of the traditional character sheet.

Point taken, this might be a preference thing.

That is all player perogative. Try this: imagine a combat scenario and be the wizard. Use the system to craft a strategically worthy spell. Tell me if you don't end up with a cool-looking picture in your mind's eye even as a result of trying to power game. And when you're done, see if the system doesn't seem any more natural.

I did the thought exercise, but I get the same result as I do when using the current AEDU powers. Its actually easier for me to picture how AEDU powers look in the game world. But again, this might be because I haven't used. Just offering my preference.