AD&D 1E Revised and Rebalanced Cavalier for 1e AD&D

[Lanefan]

So I think there is a lot of what I'm doing here you aren't picking up on. First, "just carrying on as a non-specialized fighter of the same" level is a possibility I'd like to provide for in some sense, but there class really isn't "fighter" we are just saying that it is. And class levels aren't interchangeable because they involve different amounts of XP. So we also have to do some sort of adjustment to XP. Just by RAW, let's say we have a 7th level Paladin who loses Paladin abilities and becomes, as the rules would suggest, a 7th level fighter. But if the Paladin had 170,000 XP, how much XP does he have now? It's not 170,00 XP, or else he's an 8th level fighter now.

I'd adjust their xp such that they're at the same place within the Fighter level as they were in the Cavalier level.

I'm not suggesting that he does. I'm suggesting a moral and mental crisis has occurred.

They can in fact keep fighting with all the skills of whatever level character they achieved. What they do not and cannot do under these rules is keeping going on through life as if nothing really happened. I'm doing something I feel is suitable Arthurian here. Fallen knights turning into rogues just feels right.

Another option is to loosen or amend the alignment requirements such that Cavaliers have to be Good or LN or N; with a Black Knight variant for cavalier-like people outside those alignments, similar to how the Anti-Paladin relates to the Paladin. Fallen knights turning into black knights is also very Arthurian.

It's not about the real world. It's about fantasy.

Perhaps, but that's more a matter of taste: even in the fantasy I want things to make sense with themselves.

Doesn't fit the write up. Dummies don't qualify for the class because the class is supposed to be elegant and refined. Being self-aware is not a requirement.

History is rife with elegant and refined idiots.

That, and if a player is after an elegant and refined warrior type wouldn't they go Paladin instead?

The intended write up is to make the Cavalier better at staying conscious than other classes. For your homebrew this would probably translate into a bonus on saving throws and a lower floor on when you actually died. But it's hard to write a rule that covers everyone's homebrew.

Fair enough. A very simple solution ported from 5e might be to just give Cavaliers - as a bespoke mechanic just for them! - advantage on these consciousness checks.

You get 3/2 attacks with a sword by 3rd level, so I think you'll be fine dismounted.

It's when they get their special mount it becomes a problem, as IME - probably for roleplaying reasons - once that special mount is acquired, it and the Cavalier tend to become inseparable.

 

[TwoSix]

So I think there is a lot of what I'm doing here you aren't picking up on. First, "just carrying on as a non-specialized fighter of the same" level is a possibility I'd like to provide for in some sense, but there class really isn't "fighter" we are just saying that it is. And class levels aren't interchangeable because they involve different amounts of XP. So we also have to do some sort of adjustment to XP. Just by RAW, let's say we have a 7th level Paladin who loses Paladin abilities and becomes, as the rules would suggest, a 7th level fighter. But if the Paladin had 170,000 XP, how much XP does he have now? It's not 170,00 XP, or else he's an 8th level fighter now.

Dual-classing is a thing in 1e, right, like it is in 2e?

Even in 2e, I never really understood why you couldn't just change the class to "Ex-Paladin" or "Ex-Cavalier", lose all the special abilities that derive from their supernatural or elevated standing, and simply make the character dual-class into something else at level 1 (or retire, of course.) Seems way easier than the convoluted issues around becoming a different class with a different XP track and possibly somehow becoming better at certain skills.

 

[Celebrim]

Dual-classing is a thing in 1e, right, like it is in 2e?

Even in 2e, I never really understood why you couldn't just change the class to "Ex-Paladin" or "Ex-Cavalier", lose all the special abilities that derive from their supernatural or elevated standing, and simply make the character dual-class into something else at level 1 (or retire, of course.) Seems way easier than the convoluted issues around becoming a different class with a different XP track and possibly somehow becoming better at certain skills.

Yes, dual classing is a thing. And Lanefan is objecting to certain classes of fallen cavaliers being forced "unrealistically" to give up their martial careers. This is because as Lanefan conceptualizes his game world it's all based on materialism and education and training. And that's fine.

But I think it's very thematic that fallen cavaliers generally speaking stop being knights or at least become knight-assassins or something.

The problem with a fallen cavalier just continuing on as fighter is that, well, it doesn't thematically or mechanically with what happens when you reject chivalry that has hitherto been your identity. For one thing, if you do it late enough in your career (certainly by say 13th) it could be a benefit in most respects. I can level up faster now after I've gotten all my class abilities? That's not a huge loss. Really, unlike Paladin, I don't have a lot of supernatural powers to take away from the class. They lose their resistance to mind control and that's about it. They don't have lay on hands, smite, detect evil, spells, etc.

I kind of like the idea of Lancelot going off to become a monk, or a disgraced knight taking up a life as a scoundrel knight, backstabbing and using poison as his second career. And really, with my thief revisions, this would eventually create a quite powerful character with an interesting array of skills.

 

[TwoSix]

The problem with a fallen cavalier just continuing on as fighter is that, well, it doesn't thematically or mechanically with what happens when you reject chivalry that has hitherto been your identity. For one thing, if you do it late enough in your career (certainly by say 13th) it could be a benefit in most respects. I can level up faster now after I've gotten all my class abilities? That's not a huge loss. Really, unlike Paladin, I don't have a lot of supernatural powers to take away from the class. They lose their resistance to mind control and that's about it. They don't have lay on hands, smite, detect evil, spells, etc.

I kind of like the idea of Lancelot going off to become a monk, or a disgraced knight taking up a life as a scoundrel knight, backstabbing and using poison as his second career. And really, with my thief revisions, this would eventually create a quite powerful character with an interesting array of skills.

Yea, I'm really not feeling the pull of having a high level cavalier just become a fighter. I really don't like the way it positions a fighter as a "baseline" and the cavalier and paladin are just "fighter+".

This is your project, of course, but if I was redoing AD&D, I'd just make a "fallen X class" no longer able to gain XP in the class, and thus has to dual-class into a class of the player's choice that fits their background, or simply play without XP gain.