Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

Anubis.

You seem to have a flare for misinterpreting every post I make. I know hobgoblins advance as character class. Hence my example with two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins. It's right there in your quote. All you have to do is read it. Thus, two 2nd level "fighter class" hobgoblins with NPC wealth are 1.8 each. Add in Darkvision, and you get CR 2, not CR 1.

Please read my examples more carefully in the future.

Whoops sorry about that. My bad. Didn't see the "2nd level" in there hahaha.

 

[Anubis]

Okay, now can we get back to the ghoul/ghast thing? I see this as the ONLY remaining issue with the system at the moment. Here is what I posted previously.



Okay, looks like we have a hgue debate on our hands about the ghoul and ghast. UK tells me they're underrated in the book. By HIS system, however, they're overrated. After he fixed the numbers, the ghoul still comes out to CR 4 and the ghast to CR 6.

Now I KNOW they're SLIGHTLY underrated in the book at 1 and 3, but I find this to be overcompensation. These numbers imply that a ghoul is as tough as an ogre (laughable) and a ghast is TOUGHER than an ogre (also laughable). UK thinks that everyone would agree to the CR 4 ghoul and CR 6 ghast, but I am here to make my case.

A ghoul has 13 hit points, almost never hits with its deplorable attack bonus, and has very little going for it. The ogre can EASILY kill it with a single hit. Does this sound like an equal challenge? Put both against a Level 4 party. These numbers suggest that a party at Level 4 would expend 20% of their resources against a SINGLE ghoul. This is, of course, laughable at best.

I believe the ghoul to be CR 2, CR 3 MAXIMUM. To demonstrate, I have used ghouls on many occasions. They are one of my favorite monsters. I have NEVER seen a Level 2 party or above have ANY challenge with a ghoul. By Level 3, ghouls are practically insignificant altogether. I have seen my PCs at Level 2 beat a ghast and SIX ghouls, and although that was a tough battle, they did win it albeit barely. This also shows that a single ghoul is not a challenge for such a party.

As for the ghast, it is slightly better, so I might concede it to be EQUAL to an ogre considering it has the same hit points and some good attacks. MAYBE CR 5. Certainly not CR 6 or CR 7, though.

Thoughts, everybody?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Firstly, hello to kreynolds mate, I hope you got everything sorted in my absence (thanks for helping out guys).

Hey mate!

Here's another thought. I'm looking at Appendix Table 1–1A and what jumps out right away is the way the EL values jump so drastically. Perhaps the problem can be solved there as well. Was there any rhyme or reason to those values? I'm sure they're are, but I can't find the pattern.

The Encounter Level progression was derived from the EXP tables.

I was toying about with EXP and noticed that essentially everytime you double the level you quodruple the amount of total EXP that character has.

That got me think that perhaps there was a similar formula between CR (which of course parallels Level) and EL.

I applied and tested it and it seemed correct at all points.

It jumps 4 points, then 2 points, then 2 points, then advances 1 point at a time.

What if it jumped up by two points instead? Like this...

CR - EL
1 -- 1
2 -- 3
3 -- 5
4 -- 7
5 -- 8
6 -- 9
7 -- 10
etc. etc.

No, my progression is correct.

Edit: Using the 1st-level party of four and the two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins again, the encounter can only net 1200 XP for the characters; 300 XP each. That cuts the XP reward in half. Especially for the solitary arcane spellcaster.

Now if you use my suggestion (of calculating PEL as EL) then it becomes a PEL 5 versus EL 5 encounter (worth 300 XP; 75 XP each).

As always ... tell me what you think. So far I think one or both solutions can potentially work. [/B][/QUOTE]

I am still very dubious that it needs to be changed, it does seem high at low levels, but then so are the risks...however, I am still reviewing the matter.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi seasong mate!

Another possibility, just to throw this out there, is that the disproportionate ELs at 1st and 2nd level are a good thing, because it reduces the "real challenge" at the lowest, character-building levels.

Indeed. Thats something that makes me think it is a good idea, or at the very least not a bad idea.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Here it is in a nutshell:

Level*2 ~= XP*4
Level = CR
XP*4 = EL+4

Thus:

CR*2 ~= EL+4[/B]

Looking directly at the equation, if it does not work at lower levels then a problem still exists and the system breaks down. Solve that problem and I suspect even the ghast and ghoul debate will go away.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

AHHHHHHH! DON'T ASK!! IT TOOK HIM THREE HOURS TO EXPLAIN IT TO ME!!!

5 Minutes to explain and 2 Hours and 55 minutes arguing why it was right I seem to recall.

(By the way, THAT is shouting, hahaha!)

Seriously, though, I am very mathematically minded, and the theory as a whole made my head spin until I crunched the numbers all the way up to Level 1,000,000.

Actually I seem to recall you tested it to Level 1 Trillion trying to break it!

Let's just say it's pretty damn complicated and makes no sense unless you actually put yourself in the mind of UK. I didn't like it at first, either, and brought up the same points. I shut up about it after he smashed me with the formula and hammered it into my head!

Initially it might seem complicated; but like the theory of relativity once you understand it you will see how intrinsically simple it is...thats the beauty of it.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Looking directly at the equation, if it does not work at lower levels then a problem still exists and the system breaks down.

Tecnically CR 1 to CR 2 should be +3 EL jump rather than +4 but thats the only sacrifice I made for the formula.

Solve that problem and I suspect even the ghast and ghoul debate will go away.

There is no Ghoul/Ghast problem as far as I am concerned.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Indeed. That's something that makes me think it is a good idea, or at the very least not a bad idea.

Using my above example, let's say that solitary sorcerer does successfully cast sleep on those two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins and then kills them. Let's also say that sorcerer already had 600 XP. He just jumped from level 1 to level 3 without barely lifting a finger.

That's ridiculous.

And if you think that "it's okay" to reduce the challenges faced by lower-level characters, then you are missing the whole point of this game! The lowest levels are not meant to be run through at break neck pace. They are meant to be savored, while facing proportionate challenges at every single level (not just epic levels).

The equation may be "accurate" Upper_Krust, but it has to work at all times to be universally feasible. Don't be blinded by equations that feel "accurate" right now. If you have to create a new equation that "also" works ... then so be it.

I can hear it in your written voices. Don't start rationalizing lower levels away now.

 

[-Eä-]

Y0!

Y0!


I'm just popping in to say hello! I must say I haven't followed many of the posts the last month, but I have tried to keep up.

I don't know if you have noticed this, but the system is almost perfect for creating a C++ algorithm for calculating CR, EL and so on... I'm thinking of doing this. It might be a good excersise for my already rusty programming.

Wellwell... It's nice to see someone else interested in the undead here (-: I remember the first discussions on undead gods some a year and a half ago (I think) (-:

To say something constructive, I add to this post that I think the layout is more user friendly in the third version of the document.

Are you still using Page Maker, U_K? I recently discovered the power of TeX! It's the most custmomisable layout language I have encountered... The versatility is absolute. If you're thinking of continuing publishing PDFs I recommend looking into it.

And, more importantly: I recommend publishing the files both as postscript and PDF. Most Unix and Linux users prefer postscript and there isn't much software for PDFs supporting those platforms... It isn't a major issue, but if it doesn't invlolve much work, please look into it.

 

[Anubis]

There is no Ghoul/Ghast problem as far as I am concerned.

That's because you actually belive the ghoul to be CR 4 and the ghast to be CR 6!

I am willing to dare ANY DM out there to do what I have done. Stick a ghoul up against a Level 4 party. Does the ghoul take away 20% of the party's resources? Of course not! Yet that is what the numbers have us believe.

First off, I think that if you calculate the paralysis differently, you can get a much better reading. For one, it's not at all like the Ghoul Touch spell, so that is not an accurate method of calculation. Second, perhaps multiple attacks should be counted differently as well.

All I know is that a ghoul is a 20% challenge for Level 1 characters generally, although CR 2 looks good and I could settle on CR 3. CR 4, though? Not a chance.

The smartest DM in the world could not challenge a Level 4 party with a single ghoul unless the party is reduced to 1 hp per character and the ghoul has maximum hp and a way to get some kind of surprise. Generally speaking, though, a ghoul is not very tough.

What CR do the rest of you rate ghouls as?