Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[seasong]

Another question for ya'. What kind of modifier would you assign to a template that gets maximum hit points per each hit die? Would you base the modifier on the die type? For example, Dragons get +0.75 per die. If the dragon was guaranteed maximum hit points, what would you raise it by? I was thinking of raising it by an additional +0.25.

This is answered, indirectly, on p.8 (Class Creation). Basically, the Hit Die assumes an average roll (rounded up) x0.05 CR. For example a d10 averages 6 hp (after rounding up) and gives +0.3 CR.

Max hit points on d12 would be worth +0.25, just as you guessed. The others are a bit off (for example, monstrous humanoids, at d8 HD, should only gain +0.15 per HD, to a net CR +0.75).

Of course, I could be wrong, and Upper Krust could be doing something different behind the scenes, but the above seems to work really well .

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I asked you to grab some perspective Anubis, you did, and you still couldn't see the evidence presented directly in front of you ... by (of all people) you!

First of all, 3 natural 20s in a row (as was pointed out) is a 1 in 8000 chance. Do the math and you get 0.000125%. Even if I used your flawed sorcerer versus hobgoblin scenario...

• Sorcerer (Hennet presumably) has +2 to initiative/hobgoblins have +1/sorcerer wins initiative 55% of the time
• The DC spell save for 1st level spell cast by Hennet is 13/hobgoblins will fail 60% of the time
• Hobgoblin hp should be 13 (as Seasong also pointed out)
• Hobgoblin Fortitude saves should be +4/hobgoblins will fail coup de grace 75% of the time
• Sorcerer only has to do (approximately) 14¼% more damage each time than average to end the encounter at the coup de grace

...of 2%, that's still a difference of 16,000 (not 200). Talk about adding insult to an already injured example. There's your perspective.

 

[kreynolds]

How about Energy Absorption (converting one energy type into healing hit points)? I'm wasn't surprised that it wasn't in there, as very few monsters have the ability, but I figured it would have a base modifier equal to the same for Energy Immunity (+1), but would then have an additional modifier. Do y'all think it should be an additional +1? Maybe higher?

 

[seasong]

Sorcerer (Hennet presumably) has +2 to initiative/hobgoblins have +1/sorcerer wins initiative 55% of the time

57.25% of the time. Where are you people getting your initiative calculations? I mean, it was at least close this time..

The DC spell save for 1st level spell cast by Hennet is 13/hobgoblins will fail 60% of the time

Level 2 fighters should have a cloak of resistance +1, even as NPCs. This is assumed in the DMG. They will fail 55% of the time.

And BOTH of them will fail only 30.25% of the time.

Hobgoblin hp should be 13 (as Seasong also pointed out)
Hobgoblin Fortitude saves should be +4/hobgoblins will fail coup de grace 75% of the time

Hobgoblin Fort +3, Fighter-2 Fort +3; total +6. They will fail based on the damage rolled; if more than 13 hp is rolled, they are dead without a Fort save. If the damage roll is:

1 = 70% chance of survival (assumes min 1 dmg)
2 = 70% chance of survival
3 = 55% chance of survival
4 = 40% chance of survival
5 = 25% chance of survival
6+ = 0% chance of survival (15 hp damage)

That comes out to ONE failing 67.5% of the time; or BOTH failing 45.6% of the time.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

A cloak of resistance at 2nd level? Seems strange to me that magic items would be parceled out so easily, but I did grab an iconic character, so I guess that was my fault.

As for Fortitute saves, hobgoblins advance as character class. As I understand it, you shouldn't be adding in their humanoid Fortitute bonus as well.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi S'mon!

I rate ghouls CR 2 & ghasts CR 3, although ghasts could arguably be CR 4. Ghouls are definitely not CR 1 anyway, a single ghoul can often TPK a party of 4 1st level PCs.

Exactly, the ghoul can slap an entire 1st-level party, the CR reflects this.

 

[seasong]

A cloak of resistance at 2nd level? Seems strange to me that magic items would be parceled out so easily, but I did grab an iconic character, so I guess that was my fault.

I'm also not checking things thoroughly, myself, other than the math - given the base assumptions. The only thing that annoyed me was that, given the base assumptions, the math was wrong. However, below, you will find my outlined attempt with MY base assumptions, instead of whatever y'all toss out up there . <-- please note smiley

As for Fortitute saves, hobgoblins advance as character class. As I understand it, you shouldn't be adding in their humanoid Fortitute bonus as well.

Actually, for some reason I was thinking they were a 2HD race. My bad on that. So, here's MY base assumptions, and the resulting math:

Twink 1st level Human Wizard:
HP 5 (d4 max, +1 CON)
Spell DC 15 (+1 spell level, +4 INT)
Initiative +1 (+1 DEX)
Spear 1d8-1 (x3 crit) (-1 STR)

Hobgoblin Fighter-2
HP 13 (2d10 avg, +1 CON per HD)
Fort +4 (+3 class, +1 CON)
Will +0 (+0 class, +0 WIS)
Initiative +1 (+1 DEX) (Note: initiative tie, hobgoblin wins, DEX 13)
Longsword 1d8+1 (+1 STR)

For "fairness", we will assume that neither the wizard nor the hobgoblins has taken Improved Initiative, and that the hobgoblins are 20 ft away from the wizard at the start of the round. If the hobgoblins are within striking distance, the wizard is dead regardless; if the hobgoblins are too far away, they'll just use javelins.

1. Roll initiative. Wizard has a 47.5% chance of success.
- Failure: Wizard dies.
- Success: Go to step 2.
2. Wizard casts spell. We will assume he is 10-30 ft away.
3. Hobgoblin 1 rolls save: 70% chance of succumbing.
- Does not succumb: Wizard dies.
- Succumbs: Go to step 4.
4. Hobgoblin 2 rolls save: 70% chance of failure.
- Does not succumb: Wizard dies.
- Succumbs: Go to step 5.
5. Wizard coup de graces Hobgoblin 1. 73.75% chance of death.
- If Hobgoblin does not die, Wizard dies.
- If Hobgoblin dies, go to step 6.
6. Wizard coup de graces Hobgoblin 2. 73.75% chance of death.
- If Hobgoblin does not die, Wizard dies.
- If Hobgoblin dies, WIZARD WINS.

Total chance of success: 12.7%
Chance of meaty death: 87.3%

I STILL say that the wizard deserves the XP - that's a damned risky gamble, and pulling it off is equivalent to the DM saying, "Aw right, now, I'm gonna roll this here 1d8, and iffen it comes up a ONE, you gets some XP... an' iffen it DON'T, you die."

 

[Anubis]

It would take a lot of house rules and luck for a 1st level PC to be in the situation where rolling 3 20s could kill a pit fiend, which itself is a 1 in 8000 chance. First he has to get close enough without being noticed, then win initiative, then be able to bypass DR by a magic weapon or some HR'd substance (silver IMC), then an instant-kill rule has to be in effect.

IMC pit fiends can be hurt by silver, but no instant-kill rule, so chance is 0%.

Well, I go by all he base rules and most of the special DM options stated in the DMG. Also, DR does not protect against the Instant Kill rules, only critical hit immunity does. A Commoner with a normal dagger could kill a Pit Fiend using the Instant Kill rule. It's the thing that adds the "chance that anybody could kill anything" realism factor to the game. Basically, anyone can get "lucky".

Of course you do have many house rules and you do not follow the books as closely as I do. I'm merely talking about a standard game by the rules in the book when I speak of the Instant Kill rule, which I do use in my games.

 

[S'mon]

Well, I go by all he base rules and most of the special DM options stated in the DMG. Also, DR does not protect against the Instant Kill rules, only critical hit immunity does. A Commoner with a normal dagger could kill a Pit Fiend using the Instant Kill rule. It's the thing that adds the "chance that anybody could kill anything" realism factor to the game. Basically, anyone can get "lucky".

Of course you do have many house rules and you do not follow the books as closely as I do. I'm merely talking about a standard game by the rules in the book when I speak of the Instant Kill rule, which I do use in my games.

Using the instant-kill rule is no more 'standard' than not using it, and your interpretation of it is IMO considerably less so. I don't believe the designers intended to suggest it was possible to insta-kill a creature if you couldn't bypass its DR to do any damage with a regular critical. This is also what makes your rule unrealistic IMO - if you can't hurt X even enough to do 1hp damage, it's not at all realistic that you could instantly kill it.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Howdy Seasong.

Oh I think we can improve this wizard's chances further still. If you are going to create your own arcane spellcaster, rather than use the iconics, I think we can safely assume that wizards and sorcerers put their second highest roll into Dexterity. If the iconics were smart enough to do so, then I think "Twink" is too. I will use the standard attribute array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 in the following order...

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 15
Wis 13
Cha 8

Twink is a human, so rather than choosing silly feats (to be fair as you say) he will choose feats that actually make sense, of which Improved Initiative is definitely one and Spell Focus (enchantment) is definitely another. Twink is a 1st level wizard and so takes every advantage he can get. He's not stupid after all. The important detail to note here is that it *makes sense* for a wizard to take Improved Initiative. Twink also took shield as one of his 1st level spells.

For the record as well, wizards are not proficient with short spears, but let's say Twink carries one strictly for the purposes of making a coup de grace. If you disagree, then we can redo this whole example with a sorcerer, switching 15 Int for 15 Cha.

Let's see now, the standard feat for a hobgoblin is Alertness but these 2nd level fighter hobgoblins also get a 1st and 2nd level fighter bonus feat. You could give them Improved Initiative as one of those feats, but to my way of thinking, fighters usually take much more offensive feats (Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Great Cleave). Still, the option is there. You would be tweaking out your *standard hobgoblins* specifically to resist my *tailored version* of Twink, but it's possible.

Let the combat begin!

More often than not, Twink will win initiative (even if your hobgoblins took Improved Initiative).

Let's see now, you placed the range at 20 feet?

Poppycock!

Again, Twink is not stupid. His sleep spell has a range pf 110 feet at 1st level, so he is going to take advantage of that distance and cast at 100 ft.

If Twink wins initiative, he will cast shield on himself first. If Twink lost initiative, the hobgoblins can reach Twink in 1 round with a x4 movement action (assuming they are aware of him 100 feet away with a -10 on Spot checks and a +10 on opposed Listen checks), but can do nothing else. Twink takes a 5 foot step back (negating AoO's and his need to make a Concentration check) and casts sleep on the hobgoblins at that point. The DC for sleep is 15.

If the hobgoblins *are not* put to sleep by the spell, Twink might be in trouble, although his AC is 19 now (if he won initiative) and AC 12 (if he lost). The hobgoblins only have +2 to their melee attacks and +3 to their ranged attacks. You do the math. If Twink won initiative, he is certainly not "dead by default".



If Twink can survive one more round, perhaps he will take advantage of his class granted Scribe Scroll feat by casting a written spell (remember Twink has 600 XP and a 1st level scroll only cost 12 ½ gp and 1 XP to create). For now, I'm *not* going to bother exploring that possibility ... as I prefer to keep this example simple.

If the hobgoblins *are* put to sleep by the spell, then it's a cakewalk for Twink. He can inflict an average minimum damage of 13 during a coup de grace with his shortspear. End of story. They don't even need to make their Fortitude saving throws and Twink will stab each hobgoblin twice for good measure.

Now, keeping all of those factors in mind, what are the new chances of survival?

If the hobgoblins are CR 2, that's 2400 XP. I say too much for such an easy task.