Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Eldorian]

What remains to be seen is if UK will decide to drop the whole PEL notion, or if he decides to keep it and instead divide exp rewards by 4 and make them per participant. I think me and demiurge agree that dropping PEL, or moving it to after exp considerations for the qualitative comparison of ELs, is the favorable notion, due to the ease of exp calculation this would bring. As it was, the PEL took several reads through to understand for me, and for most of us considering how much disinformation was floating around. I'm gonna put my vote in for moving PEL to after exp considerations.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Eldorian]

Hello mate! (U_K here)



I also find myself agreeing with your recent revelation.

I do seem to be calculating the same thing twice. DOH!

Glad we got that sorted and now I can go to Gencon.

Appreciate the feedback all! Couldn't have done it without you.

Not sure if I will be on the boards at all over the next few days while at Gencon (?). Normal service will however resume as of Monday night.

In the meantime if anyone wants to put Demiurges suggestions through their paces (and save me the trouble of doing it on Monday ) then by all means go ahead.

All ready put it through it's paces, with a bunch of examples. I think we got it now. See previous post for consideration on how we're gonna use what we got. (ie, which factor of party size we kill)

Eldorian Antar
P.S enjoy gencon, hopefully I'll get to go to one, one of these days.

 

[Eldorian]

For all intents and purposes, it looks like this should be PEL +10:

Twink: Level 1. Alone. EL 1, -4 for being alone = PEL -3
Hobgob: Level 2. EL 5. Two of them = EL 7
Difference = +10

The XP I count for that is 9,600, which is good enough to jump from 1st to 4th, and be 400 XP away from 5th.

Now, on page 1, it tells us that a negative CR turns into a fractional CR. That is, a CR -3 becomes CR 1/16th. It does not specify that this also applies to EL (or PEL), however, and throughout the rules we are told that CR and EL are two different things.

On Table 1-1A, then, we get to how to calculate EL from CR. Twink the Wizard's CR is definitely 1, so that gives him an EL of 1. Then, on Table 1-3, we are told that being alone drops his PEL by -4.

At no point are we told that there is a minimum PEL of 0(remember, don't treat or assume that EL/PEL is like CR!), or that negative PELs should be translated into fractions, etc. Nor does it necessarily make much sense to. A level 1 party of 4 who kill a single CR 1/16th ant should get XP for defeating a PEL -4 threat (19 XP each), not a PEL -1 threat (50 XP). Otherwise, why bother to fight a CR 1/4 or 1/2 creature? You'll get the same XP from the small fries.

It is a 10 encounter level difference. If you use suggestion A and reduce all exp awards by 4, making them individual awards, then it's 2400 exp. If you use suggestion B and consider the character an EL 1 for the calculations, it's also 2400 exp. Both would bump him up to within 600 xp of 3rd level, which is reasonable for a +10 EL fight.

Eldorian Antar

P.S. Do some calculations with the old system and an 8 person party. I'm at school or I would. I'm betting you'd level at half the rate, for the same difficulty of encounters.

 

[S'mon]

Hi all! (U_K here)

I have a few minutes...

I was at Euro Gencon today (albeit briefly), had a great time, met Morrus (among others), bought some stuff (Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of the Righteous), attended a seminar and generally loafed around, tomorrow and sunday I'll get playing some games as well.

What remains to be seen is if UK will decide to drop the whole PEL notion, or if he decides to keep it and instead divide exp rewards by 4 and make them per participant. I think me and demiurge agree that dropping PEL, or moving it to after exp considerations for the qualitative comparison of ELs, is the favorable notion, due to the ease of exp calculation this would bring. As it was, the PEL took several reads through to understand for me, and for most of us considering how much disinformation was floating around. I'm gonna put my vote in for moving PEL to after exp considerations.

Obviously I won't be making any decisions until after this weekend and I can turn my full attention to the problem.

But obviously simplicity is the keyword here. So any changes will bear that in mind.

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Hey U_K!

What do you think of The Book of Vile Darkness? And what is the Book of the Righteous?

 

[Zaknafein]

looks preety

but out of curiosity i was wondering do you have a more updated list of monsters and their new cr's? thanks... and i am really going to like to implement this to my game session.

-in honor zaknafein

 

[S'mon]

Only have a few minutes here...

Hey U_K!

Hi Dark Wolf mate! (U_K here)

What do you think of The Book of Vile Darkness?

Well I have only had a few hours with it and the only chapter I have fully read to date is the Arch-fiends Chapter.

To be honest I like everything I have seen except for the Arch-fiends section which has so many flaws and such incongruous art that its probably the most disappointed I have ever been with regards a 3rd Ed. product (since that was my primary reason for buying it).

I mean if you ever needed evidence that the current CR rules were totally and utterly nonsensical you could use that chapter as proof positive.

I mean Demogorgon has 11 servants listed with CRs higher than Graz'zt!

Additionally the treatments of the Arch-fiends is very poor, with regards previous iterations.

And what is the Book of the Righteous?

Its one of Green Ronins products - I am sure they have details over on their site.

I'll talk more about both as and when I get the time to both read them and post herein.

 

[S'mon]

Re: looks preety

Hi there Zaknafein! (U_K here)

but out of curiosity i was wondering do you have a more updated list of monsters and their new cr's? thanks... and i am really going to like to implement this to my game session.

Do you mean more Monster Manual Monsters CRs (?) or a more up to date challenge ratings of those I have already listed?

If its the latter, no, because they are more or less accurate and haven't needed updating with the minor changes we have made since Version 3.

Though I will probably double check them all for Version 4.

Not sure listing a revised CR for every monster in the monster manual (or elsewhere)is my goal, which is why I sought to provide people with the tools to do so myself.

I dunno, are people looking for more, if so anything specific.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Well I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm still trying to get a definitive answer as to whether or not you mean to add racial CR modifiers (like darkvision) to a monster (like hobgoblins) that advances as a character class (if their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)?

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Well I can't speak for anybody else, but I'm still trying to get a definitive answer as to whether or not you mean to add racial CR modifiers (like darkvision) to a monster (like hobgoblins) that advances as a character class (if their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)?

I would say yes (though obviously that isn't official).
Taking it to extreme: if you have a dragon of (say) CR 30, and add 10 levels of fighter, you would obviously increase it's CR by that benefit.
The difference between the dragon and the hobgoblin is only one of degree (though your players may see it differently if you accidentally use the wrong one).

Darren