Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Sonofapreacherman]

Eldorian.

I brought up protection from arrows as an afterthought. I've been talking about Twink the whole time! There's your selective perception. Look, don't acknowledge my existence. That's great! It lets me get to the bottom of all these lower-level (and now apparantly higher-level) CR system problems without angering the Upper_Krust god by responding to people like ... well, you.

 

[seasong]

Sonofapreacherman: Your CRs: Ack, thanks for pointing that out. I forgot the NPC wealth modifier. That does make it a bit more reasonable, but only by reducing the CR. A fighter 5 vs a CR 4 creature still has the same XP results as the ones I posted.

On the other hand, I think this is an area where I'm likely to adjust things to suit myself anyway .

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

It complicates the calculations a bit, but I think it's actually the way it's supposed to work. When he included the PEL modifer for group size, UK probably overlooked this.

Something about Table 1–3 does seem over simplified. But I'm not sure how to go about changing it until Upper_Krust can illuminate us on the mechanics he used (assuming, as always, that they are not arbitrary).

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Something about Table 1–3 does seem over simplified. But I'm not sure how to go about changing it until Upper_Krust can illuminate us on the mechanics he used (assuming, as always, that they are not arbitrary).

In the standard DMG system, you use average party level to determine XP, then divide XP by the number of characters. So, if there is only one character, he gains 4x the XP that a group of 4 gains. However, the DMG includes no explicit system for deciding what challenges are appropriate for groups that differ from 4-5 members.
UK's system gives a means of doing that (table 1-3), by modifying PEL. But since PEL is then used to calculate XP, a single character already gains 4x the XP of a standard group. There is no need to then divide by group size (applying that modifier twice, resulting in a single character getting 16x the standard group).

Example
In standard DMG system, a group of 4 10th level characters against a CR10 monster will gain 750xp each. If there were 8 characters, they would gain 375xp.
In UK's system a PEL 10 group of 4 characters against an EL 10 critter would also gain 750 XP. (When PEL = EL, gain 300 x level / number of characters) But if there were 8 characters, their PEL would be raised to 12 (giving 150 x level = 1500), and then they would divide among 8 people (187.5).

So, since the standard XP awards are based on the total being divided between 4 characters, the XP awards listed in table 1-5 should be divided by 4, and explicitly stated as being an individual award.

Darren

 

[Eldorian]

Btw, sorry about getting off on a tangent.. Teach me to agree with Anubis. Knew it was a bad idea, even if I did agree with him.


After reading demiurge's suggestion.. that looks like it might be right. You factor the party size twice.. which may be causing the trouble.

Take the appendix table 1-5. Divide all the experience awards by 4, and instead of total experience, it's experience per character.

Taking seasong's 4th level fighter vs 3rd level fighter example.

4th level fighter is PEL 5, the foe is an EL 7 encounter, so he should recieve 2400/4 = 600 XP.

If the same 4th level fighter teamed up with 3 of his 4th level mates, then: PEL 9 vs EL 7, 600/4 = 150 exp each. So he would earn one forth the XP he would have recieved for fighting it solo.

Taking the infamous 1st level character vs two CR 2 creatures. That would be a PEL -3 vs an EL 7. EXP 9600/4 = 2,400. That seams a bit more reasonable.

The level 20 guy vs the level 15 guy.. PEL 14 vs EL 16. EXP 12000/4= 3000.

Same 20th level guy and his 3 mates, same 15 guy, PEL 18 vs EL 16, EXP 3000/4 = 750.

So you recieve four times the exp when you solo the fight, compared to if you had done the fight with your group of 4.


I believe that might be the problem, the double factoring of party size. Good job demiurge.

Ya know, thinking about this, if we want to eleminate one of the factoring of party sizes, we could just do away with PEL and keep the EXP at current rate... PEL is more difficult to factor.

Taking the level 4 party. If we call both the party and the solo fighter as PEL 9. Against the EL 7 3rd level fighter, they would recieve 600 exp divided amonst themselves. If the fighter was solo, he'd get it all, and if he was with 3 party members, it would be 150.

However, this doesn't properly represent the PEL to EL qualitative descriptions, as seen on table 1-4.

Thing is, you gotta ask yourself, "Self, how much EXP is a 50/50 fight worth?"

If the fight is 4 on 4, all same CRs, PEL X vs EL X+4, then the answer is average PC level times 1200, total, so average PC level times 300, each.

If the fight is one on one, same CRs, PEL X-4 vs EL X, then the answer is PC level times 1200 by current reconing, or PC level times 300 by proposed change.

It's my thinking that any individual involved in a fight with a 50/50 chance of winning deserves the same exp, no matter if he was alone or with his friends.

Once again, I think demiurge solved the problem, and it wasn't with just low levels.

Eldorian Antar

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Ya know, thinking about this, if we want to eleminate one of the factoring of party sizes, we could just do away with PEL and keep the EXP at current rate... PEL is more difficult to factor.

Eldorian Antar [/B]

This method would eliminate having lots of ugly fractions in Table 1-5 (for example, the -4 result would not need to change from 75 to 18.75).

PEL could still be included, introduced in the section containing Table 1-4, allowing GMs to gauge the strength of enemies against heir PC group. I'd suggest swapping the order of 1-5 and 1-4 though, so XP calculation is shown before introducing PEL, to avoid the possibility of people accidentally using it in XP calculations.

Darren
PS thanks for the acknowledgement.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Power Comparisons

The Power Comparison table (Table 1-4) uses the same classifications as in the DMG, but I'm wondering if the relationship is really as decsribed, in UK's system.

According to table 1-4, a creature of EL+4 above the PEL is a Difficult encounter - "virtually equal to the PCs in power."

Take a group of 10th level characters (PEL14). An EL18 encounter would be the upper end of Difficult for them, apparently roughly equal in power.
4 NPCs of 10th level would work out as EL17, and since NPCs are weaker than PCs this seems OK.
6 NPCs of the same level would be EL18, and that is probably OK. So far, so good.
But then, 3 14th level NPCs are also EL18, and I think that would be a very difficult fight - and may not be winnable.

A single NPC of 20th level (CR18) with a 14th level sidekick (+12.5% of 18 = 2.25) gives an EL 18 encounter.
If the BBEG dumped the follower, he could be of level 23-26 (Multiplied by .9 for NPC equipment).
I think both of these two examples are very likely to lead to TPK.

I'm not saying the system is broken, but I am concerned that the difference in power between characters as EL rises might be a lot higher than people are used to with the standard CR system and that changing that descriptive table might be called for.

Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Re: Power Comparisons

Speaking of the infamous 1st level character faced off against two CR 2 creatures, you are correct Eldorian (in that the 1st level character would be worth PEL –3 and that the two CR 2 creatures are worth EL 7). My initial XP assessment was flawed. I doubled the last line rather than two rows previous; 9600 XP is entirely correct.

But my concern remains the same. Do I add CR modifiers to a monster that advances as a character class (assuming their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)? Or do I not?

If I do not add the CR modifiers, the above example falls to PEL –3 and EL 3 for 2400/4 = 600 XP (using demiurgeastaroth's revisions) for a solo defeat... (which seems a lot more reasonable to me than 2400 XP for defeating two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins).

...or...

A party of four with PEL 1 and the same EL 3 hobgoblin opponents for 600 XP (or 150 for each member).

 

[S'mon]

Hi all! (U_K here)

Its going to be a seemingly impossible task catching up with all the replies today, since I have to go to Gencon UK shortly.

Upper_Krust.

I'm trying to make sense of your mixed opponent rules.

I still don't understand how 241.6R% of a Base Unit EL 24 comes to 26?

I thought that perhaps it was 241.6R% of the Great Red Dragon CR56. But that would come to CR135 and an EL of 29.

What am I doing wrong?

Okay.

Remember the base unit = 100% (in the example the base unit is EL 24).

The total Rating (including all the devils) is 241.6%.

That means you have the base unit x 2.416.

We know that adding two characters the same increases EL by 2 and adding three increases the EL by 3.

Obviously x2 (the .416 is irrelevant in this example) is the same as Two monsters equal to the base unit.

Two EL 24 monsters = EL 26.

Hope that helps mate.

 

[S'mon]

Hello! (U_K here)

Upper_Krust.

If you can give me a definite answer on this subject ... that would be great.

Right now I am calculating the two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins to be worth CR 2 each (1.8 with NPC wealth +0.2 for darkvision). That's EL 5 each. Because there are 2 of them, EL 5 jumps to EL 7.

Now, assuming rounding down is new rule, do I or don't I add darkvision as a CR modifier to a monster that advances as a character class (assuming their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)?

If I don't ... those hobgoblins become CR 1/EL 1 each and EL 3 together.

If I do ... then here's my thought.

Looking at Table 1–2, make the stipulation for 1.5 "mixed" opponents also the same modifier for 2 opponents (when not calculating mixed opponents) and then stagger all the other modifiers accordingly ... ending with
24–31 Opponents at EL +8.

That would make those hobgoblins (with a darkvision +0.2 CR bonus) become CR 2/EL5 each and EL 6 together.

Not much different from the current inflated XP problem. But now apply both changes.

Without the darkvision modifier, and using the above changes to Table 1–2, those hobgoblins would be CR 1/EL 1 each or EL 2 together.

Hopefully one of all of these solutions can solve the inflated XP problem at lower levels.

Your above solution breaks the system mantra.

Personally I don't see the problem in the amount of EXP given out (because the CRs are correct), but rather that the fragility of characters at low levels extends to NPCs as well.

A solution (if I eventually deem one necessary?) might be something akin to WotCs fixed EXP rate at low levels.