Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[S'mon]

Hey seasong mate! (U_K here)

Done? I'll try to watch myself more carefully...

Appreciate it dude.

I wasn't singling out anyone earlier...just be cool and play nice...everyone is friends here and I want to keep it that way.

More on topic, how's version 4 coming along?

Well I haven't really added/changed much in the past week since I am in London, but I have added a few footnotes in my hard copy.

 

[S'mon]

Hiya mate! (U_K natch.)

As for my last comment (presumably to Anubis) if he can control his mouth, then so shall I. If he cannot, then I will be toning *nothing* down, regardless of your reputed "slipperiness".

This is borderline behaviour and I don't want to hear any more jive like this from anyone. I'm not singling you out Kolja mate, I'm sure all concerned have given as good as they have got.

Of course, if the divine wrath of Upper_Krust parts the clouds to rain down holy fire, I will behave no matter what, but that is a matter of respect.

If I perceive one more overtly venomous comment after tonight on this matter (I haven't checked all the remaining posts yet) then I'll be bringing it to the attention of the moderators and furthermore I won't be replying in future to comments made by that person.

Either you keep it civil or take it out of my sight.

 

[S'mon]

Re: A question about Party EL and CR

Hi there demiurgeastaroth! (U_K here)

Let's say you have a 4-man party of 20th level characters. Under this system:

What whould be a moderate encounter (CR+0)?

CR 20

How many experience points would each member get for taking out a Titan (CR28)?

20th-level party vs EL +2 Encounter gives 20 x 600 EXP (Total)

12,000 EXP divided by 4 = 3000 EXP each for defeating the Titan.

Here's my estimation of question 1, let me know if I'm right or wrong.

"The PEL is always their actual level divided by 4"

According to table 1-1A, the actual EL of the group is 18. The above quote suggests that PEL therefore equals 14 (this is where I fear I may be wrong).

Party Level is Total Levels (CR) divided by the number of characters in the group.

But Party Encounter Level (PEL) is the actual encounter level of the group; minus 4.

Remember that one 20th-level character is EL 18. So four 20th-level characters would be EL 22 (18 + 4 for having 4-5 characters).

But the PEL is always 4 less than the actual EL so a Party of 4-5 20th-level characters would be PEL 18.

A 20th-level PC on its own would be PEL 14.
Two 20th-level PCs would be PEL 16
Three 20th-level PCs would be PEL 17
Four or Five = PEL 18
etc. (as per the rules for multiple characters).

So an appropriate (moderate) challenge would be something that is EL14, for example a single CR 10 critter. That doesn't seem right.

The easy way to determine a Challenge Rating is:

Party Level x 1 = Moderate (EL +0)
Party Level x 1.5 = Tough (EL +2)
Party Level x 2 = Difficult (EL +4)
Party Level x 3 = (EL +6)
Party Level x 4 = (EL +8)

If I'm misunderstanding that quote, and apply no modificaton, then the moderate encounter would be a CR20 critter, which seems reasonable.

Thats right.

Incidently I gotta go here, I'll be on early in the morning to catch up with therest of the posts.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

A question about Party EL and CR

Party Level is Total Levels (CR) divided by the number of characters in the group.

But Party Encounter Level (PEL) is the actual encounter level of the group; minus 4.

Remember that one 20th-level character is EL 18. So four 20th-level characters would be EL 22 (18 + 4 for having 4-5 characters).

Thanks for that clearing that up. I suggest putting in the final version a detailed example - showing the calculation of a Party Level, then PEL, then showing how much XP that same group would get from a specific encounter.

Darren

 

[seasong]

Regarding PEL vs EL:

I originally got into the Twink discussion because the probabilities were wrong. In the process, I think I got lumped with the group who felt the PEL vs EL worked well at all levels, when I, personally, was undecided.

Let me repair that now .

A much better example is a single level 4 human fighter PC against a single level 3 human fighter NPC. All other things being equal, the level 4 fighter will win (although it will cost him in hit points). But at PEL 5 vs EL 7, he will get 2,400 XP for the encounter.

Now let's consider a level 20 fighter versus a level 15 fighter; the level 20 fighter is going to win again, although it will still cost him in hit points. And the PEL is 14 versus an EL 14: 12,000 XP.

That seems a bit off when you're stronger than the opponent.

And while I don't mind that kind of thing at the lower levels (where fast advancement is, to my mind, a good thing), it hurts at the higher levels where it continues to apply.

As another example, a cleric 5 and fighter 5 could fight a single level 4 fighter, and get 1,200 XP each. And if the fighter did most of the fighting, followed up by some healing from the cleric, they could do this a few times a day before low hit points forced them to stop... and then they could probably do some double-teaming together for 1 or 2 more times - talk about an XP machine!

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Freaky XP at Low levels

People have pointed out that the system produces wonky XP at very low levels. The DMG might have the solution. If you look at experience table on page 166, 1st to 3rd level characters all receive the same XP.

I would suggest, for levels 1-20, referring the user to that experience chart, using PEL for Level, and enemy EL for CR, and recommending the formula only for higher levels. The XP totals for all but the low levels should be the same, since UK's system is based on the XP progression from that table.

Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

...a single level 4 human fighter PC against a single level 3 human fighter NPC. All other things being equal, the level 4 fighter will win (although it will cost him in hit points). But at PEL 5 vs EL 7, he will get 2,400 XP for the encounter.

If I'm not mistaken, the 4th level PC human fighter is EL9 (as for the 3rd level NPC fighter, EL5 is accurate assuming all things are rounded down). Meaning the XP reward should be 300 XP.

If Table 1–3 is factored into the equation, this example would change to EL5 versus PEL5 and 1200 XP for the PC.

Now let's consider a level 20 fighter versus a level 15 fighter; the level 20 fighter is going to win again, although it will still cost him in hit points. And the PEL is 14 versus an EL 14: 12,000 XP.

Actually, if the PC is the 20th level fighter then their EL is 18. If the 15th level fighter is the NPC, then their EL is 16. That will only net 3000 XP for the PC.

If Table 1–3 is factored in the equation, this example would change to EL16 versus PEL14 and 12000 XP for the PC.

As another example, a cleric 5 and fighter 5 could fight a single level 4 fighter, and get 1,200 XP each.

Well, PEL 10 for the pair (–2 according to Table 1–3) equals PEL8 versus EL7 (assuming the 4th level fighter is an NPC and we are rounding down) for a reward of 2250 XP.

Hopefully that offers some clarity on how to crunch the numbers.

This is also why I suggest calculating PEL as EL (at least as a start to fixing the problem).

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

A few more quick questions...

What's the EL of a single CR ½ creature? EL ½?

I'd recommend using the official DMG method (substituting EL for the DMG's CR). When using fractional creatures, you calculate as if it was an EL1 creature, and then multiply XP earned by the fraction.

And if I add +2 EL to a CR ½ creature, how do I calculate the final EL?

EL ½ + EL 2 = EL 2 ½? Round down to 2?

I'll have a go.

Method 1
Since +2 EL is equivalent to x2 opponents, just calculate XP normally and multiply the final total by x2

Method 2

Since a CR.5 creature is really CR 0 from a design POV, the CR becomes 0+2 = 2.

Results

Imagine (just for the sake of this example - since we dn't know how UK is going to resolve the low level XP totals) you get 300 xp from an EL 1 encounter.

Based on the DMG method, A CR.5 creature would therefore give 150 XP.
Applying +2 EL to that creature by the two methods I suggest:

Method 1 XP x 2 = 300.
Method 2 Since EL2 is 1 higher than EL 1, you get 1.5x the XP of an EL1 encounter, or 450 XP.

I think Method 2 is correct. The difference is because UK breaks his own progression. To get an adjusted CR of 1/2, a creature should have a calculated CR of -3; 1/4 should be -7, etc. I'm sure he has a good reason for doing it this way, though.

Darren

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

If I'm not mistaken, the 4th level PC human fighter is EL9. Meaning the XP reward should be 300 XP.

If Table 1–3 is factored in the equation, this example would change to EL5 versus PEL5 and 1200 XP for the PC.
<snip>
This is also why I suggest calculating PEL as EL (at least as a start to fixing the problem).

I think the problem here is that:
1) you calculate average party level
2) you modify for group size
3) Calculate XP for group
4) Divide XP among group.

The group is being factored in twice (steps 2 & 4).

My suggestion: instead of giving a base award of
300xp x Level, divided among the group
the base award should be
75XP x Level each

It complicates the calculations a bit, but I think it's actually the way it's supposed to work. When he included the PEL modifer for group size, UK probably overlooked this.

Darren

 

[Eldorian]

Eldorian.

You just based your entire diatribe on a 3rd level wizard with protection from arrows. At 1st level, Twink is going to need Dexterity in order to reach 3rd level (alive). Please stick to the examples in the future rather than warping the debate to suit your own selective perceptions.

What??!?!? You brought up protection from arrows. Personally I've never had a problem with archers in a game. You do not need dex to reach level 3 alive. I've seen several mages do it without dex. I'm just gonna stop acknowledging your existance. Your posts don't attempt to argue, just to insult. Selective perceptions indeed. I'll show you selective perception...

Eldorian Antar

P.S. Hey UK, hows gencon? Having fun?