Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Sonofapreacherman]

Eldorian.

For all the times that Dexterity will come in useful (you list these yourself; AC, initiative, ranged combat, Reflex saving throws; basically during every combat), making that attribute higher than Constitution will be far more useful to wizards than the one or two extra hit points they stand to gain (for a class that is already avoiding combat) or Fortitude saves (for that handful of creatures that whose special abilities prompt one). I stand by my convictions.

As for the record, the Twink examples have so far shown that if the wizard wins initiative, he pretty much commands the combat. For a wizard that already has 600 or so XP fighting the two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins of my example, that’s a 1st to 3rd level transition. Hardly warranted for a single random dice roll.

To address your belief that Twink is tweaked specifically for killing hobgoblins ... that’s a wild claim and not one you can support. Twink is a standard generalist with more than a passing interest in the school of enchantment (once again, not to be underestimated). Casting more potent charm and sleep spells does not make him a hobgoblin killer. It makes him a typical low-level monster killer. By another word, you could even call him an adventurer (albeit one that thinks ahead).



Let’s see now, when your most common low level spell attack is sleep, suddenly grabbing a light weight, high critical, coup-de-grace weapon seems like a good idea. Funny that. So far, everything about Twink is perfectly ordinary (as wizards go).

As for establishing ranges, your estimations are bound to dungeons as well. Well done! You’ve covered about 33% of the common gaming environments.



-----

Anubis.

Anubis and Eldorian on the same side! It's like the Unholy Alliance or something!

I love it! In the same way that misery loves company, apparently misconceptions are no different! I guess anything beats actually looking at the evidence. Can I get you some ignorance to go with your bliss? Oh that's right! They're one and the same.

 

[S'mon]

Hi there U_K

Hey Sorcica mate! (U_K here)

Ehh..I beg do differ. The half-dragon increase your HD type by one to a maximum of d12, according to the MM and DMG. I don't know if this is different in SS, but unless they've changed it, that's the case.

I think I finally am able to make myself understandable. I mean a HD type increase. Fx from d8 to d10.

Glad we finally understand each other.

Yep, but what I meant was a HD type increase. So, what would it be then, in CR?

Virtually nothing. But dependant on the previous Level/HD type of course.

Yep, I'm aware of that It's just that abilities like Divine Grace and such are things are a bit difficult to gauge correctly (at least for me....).

Try and gauge each ability in comparison to a feat. Then divide the total number of abilities over the space of 20 levels by 20.

eg. the fighter gets +11 feats over 20 levels. We know that each feat is roughly +0.2. Therefore the fighter gains about +0.11 from its class features.

Another thing. I'm afraid to open a can of worms, but the issuse of ability scores affecting CR or not is relevant when CR is used as ECL.

Yes they are applied to ECL. I'll make that clearer in Version 4.

You yourself increase the value of regen. and fast healing when applied to a PC. I am of the opinion, that ability modiers are one of the deciding factors for a player wanting to play a monster of some sort. I know that the dssign parameters take care of most of the problems, except they don't.
There's a big difference in playing an ogre with +10 str, -2 dex and -4 int than playing another large creature with +10 or +15 to all stats.
I'm not sure what the solution should be, though

Indeed. The solution is pretty simple.

EITHER

You have to assign +0.5/size increase above medium (instead of +1.5). Then add ability scores.

OR

Keep the size modifier as +1.5. Then factor in all ability scores different from the benefits of size increases.

+8 str, +4 con, -2 dex/size increase above medium.

Well, I'm off for Easter. Have a good one, and looking forward to your reply.

Happy Easter mate!

 

[S'mon]

Hello kreynolds mate! (U_K here)

Ah. I get what you're saying. A d8 HD is +0.25. A d10 HD +0.3. If you're HD type is increased retroactively, you would just add the difference between the two (+0.05 per HD) to the ECL. For example, if a 6 HD creature, with a d8 for hit die, gains a template that increases its HD, its over CR should increase by +0.3 (6 HD x +0.05).

Do I have that right UK? Or am I way off the mark.

Thats right.

Remember that you only apply the bonus for every individual HD increased.

 

[S'mon]

Hello again mate! (U_K natch.)

Nope, you're on the mark, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks So, if this template was to be added to a PC, it would be ECL +1 (saying 0.05 * 20 lvls)?

Or what? This does not seem balanced with UK's estimation that max HP should be approx. +0.5 CR.
If you're a 20th lvl fighter, would you rather have 200 hp and a few bonuses to spare (max hp) or 119 hp (the avg. of d12 at 19d12)?

Comments? (befor I leave for Easter - really got to get going.. )

Technically the HD type increase adds nothing though, since its going to be incorporated into your base figure. Whereas the max. hp total is significant. However, either on their own won't add a full ECL.

However, I think with regards ECL it may be better to round fractions from +0.5 up.

 

[Eldorian]

Eldorian.

For all the times that Dexterity will come in useful (you list these yourself; AC, initiative, ranged combat, Reflex saving throws; basically during every combat), making that attribute higher than Constitution will be far more useful to wizards than the one or two extra hit points they stand to gain (for a class that is already avoiding combat) or Fortitude saves (for that handful of creatures that whose special abilities prompt one). I stand by my convictions.

As for the record, the Twink examples have so far shown that if the wizard wins initiative, he pretty much commands the combat. For a wizard that already has 600 or so XP fighting the two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins of my example, that’s a 1st to 3rd level transition. Hardly warranted for a single random dice roll.

To address your belief that Twink is tweaked specifically for killing hobgoblins ... that’s a wild claim and not one you can support. Twink is a standard generalist with more than a passing interest in the school of enchantment (once again, not to be underestimated). Casting more potent charm and sleep spells does not make him a hobgoblin killer. It makes him a typical low-level monster killer. By another word, you could even call him an adventurer (albeit one that thinks ahead).



Let’s see now, when your most common low level spell attack is sleep, suddenly grabbing a light weight, high critical, coup-de-grace weapon seems like a good idea. Funny that. So far, everything about Twink is perfectly ordinary (as wizards go).

As for establishing ranges, your estimations are bound to dungeons as well. Well done! You’ve covered about 33% of the common gaming environments.



-----

Anubis.

I love it! In the same way that misery loves company, apparently misconceptions are no different! I guess anything beats actually looking at the evidence. Can I get you some ignorance to go with your bliss? Oh that's right! They're one and the same.

Um... wizards aviod combat? Since when? Dnd is about combat, you can't avoid it unless you're playing atypical dnd. And dex will help you avoid a hit or two, but con will help you survive a hit. I mean, face it, without con, your own fireball will kill you. Sure your increased dex may help you save, but eventually, you will fail that save, and BAM dead wizard. With a bit of con, you're almost garanteed to survive one failed save, and then hope you get healed afterward. Trust me, ac is so hard to increase, especially with the changes to haste, that a wizard is better off going for miss chances from blur or displacement or ghost form, and increased mobility from spells like fly and ghostform (ghost form is the best defensive spell), and con for the HP. Can't go wrong with HP. As for you saying that fortitude saves are rare.. HA. You need to play more dnd. There are ALOT of fortitude saves out there. Look in the phb. the MM. Play a few games... Poison, death effects. etc etc.

And I was talking about the plethera of scrolls your character had prepared, looked like he was planning on having a solo fight to me. And sleep is a crappy spell for sorcerers, as is enchantment focus; Color spray remains somewhat useful at higher levels, and enchantments are far to limited in utility to specialize in. Do transmutation instead and get eyebite, then you have your neccessary charming abilites (and eyebite is such a useful spell for sorcerers, who was the origninal proposed character to fight the hobgobos anyways).

And I take great offence to your last comment. Tone it down or I shall become viscious.

Eldorian Antar

 

[S'mon]

This is Upper_Krust.

To Anubis, Eldorian, Seasong and Sonofapreacherman.

You guys better keep things amicable or I will start laying a few smackdowns...I guaran-damn-tee it.

I've kept away from this particular debate because its far too subjective for my tastes.

Do not force my divine intervention on this matter.

And I take great offence to your last comment. Tone it down or I shall become viscious.

Don't you mean vicious?

 

[kreynolds]

Don't you mean vicious?

I think he meant he would become aggressively sticky.

 

[Shalewind]

I think he meant he would become aggressively sticky.

This is the funniest thing I've heard all morning.

Anubis: While I agree with you on the CON issue (mostly anyway ) I think the reliance on any form of certain distance is flawed.

While a great deal of the 3E community plays in dungeon settings (after all it is called D&D) a great number of people also play in wildness, city, and rural settings. I may not be the standard player, but I hardly ever see a dungeon crawl and I know several like me.

I'm not saying that dungeon encounter don't account for a large portion of the normal gaming community, but I don't think it is fair to say that encounter distance is a 51%+ done at 30 ft. Just like it wouldn't be fair to say that encounter distance is 51%+ 100 ft. This whole average combat scenario can't be nailed down (although I used to say the same about CR ).

UK: Is your CR system open and ready for publish? I know you are still waiting for the next SRD update for the whole thing in ImHB, but I take it the CR system is ready to go?

 

[seasong]

To Anubis, Eldorian, Seasong and Sonofapreacherman.

Done? I'll try to watch myself more carefully...

More on topic, how's version 4 coming along?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Eldorian.

You're being selective now. I didn't say that wizards avoid combat ... period. (Perhaps my Twink example wasn't proof enough?) Wizards avoid "melee" combat by casting spells behind the fighter-type meat sponges. Because of that fact, Constitution isn't as relevant to wizards as Dexterity (unless, like Anubis, you are creating frontline wizards). A high Dexterity (combined with mage armor and shield) can make wizards invulnerable to any melee or ranged attacks that doesn't roll a natural 20. And if low-level wizards gets hit with a natural 20 (with or without all that magical protection) no amount of hit points are going to save them.

Moreover, at 3rd level a protection from arrows spell becomes a wizard's best friend. A high Constitution for hit points is simply not needed. I'm not denying that single-classed wizards occasionally build up their Constitution, but only as a crutch because they don't trust their own spellcasting abilities. Arcane spells, if used correctly, make a high Constitution score redundant. I think you even began making this point yourself with your some of your spell examples.

Any wizard should have a bevy of scrolls, regardless of the opponents they face. Scribe Scroll is a class ability that should be used to its greatest advantage. A wizard without scrolls is like a warrior without their armor and weapons. Yes, scrolls cost XP, but you have to spend money to make money; XP is no different for a wizard. It doesn't make Twink a hobgoblin killer. It's makes him a standard adventurer.

As for my last comment (presumably to Anubis) if he can control his mouth, then so shall I. If he cannot, then I will be toning *nothing* down, regardless of your reputed "slipperiness".



Of course, if the divine wrath of Upper_Krust parts the clouds to rain down holy fire, I will behave no matter what, but that is a matter of respect.