Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Anubis]

Howdy Seasong.

I have since read your subsequent post. If you wish to leave it at that, I understand. Otherwise, I submit the following insights.

Wouldn't you like that? I'm baaaaaaack . . .

We could not disagree more.

Disagree all you want, but it's a FACT that a majority of combat does not happen by surprise nor at 100 feet. Most adventures take place in dungeons, and dungeon combat generally starts at around 30 feet. This is common knowledge. Yes other adventures are out there, but we're talking about MOST COMMON. Ya' know, as in 51%+ of the time.

I dropped nothing. I took the default array "as is" without converting it into points. I did so to embrace an objective standard, in much the same way that I did not make Twink an Enchanter specialist. If I were to modify Twink, it would be as follows.

25 points.

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 11
Cha 8

Still not tweaked out, but what I would consider fair.

Although you still drop Constitution. Sorry, no good player does that, I don't care what iconics do. A player is unlikely to do this. If he's an Elf, maybe, but not a Human. It's not about wanting to soak damage, it's about BEING ABLE TO SOAK DAMAGE. Try as they might, Wizards and Sorcerers can't avoid getting smacked around forever. They need hit points to survive. Smart opponents will go after these types right away.

Saving throws for 1st level spells, DC 14 (16 for enchantment).

As for your example, multiple elements have to be considered. Who surprises who? Do they surprise each other. My original objection to 2400 XP was for a 1st level wizard who gets the drop on my two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins. If such a wizard encountered these hobgoblins at melee range, I would be the first person to concede that he would probably lose, "if" he lost initiative. If the arcane spellcaster does not, the odds significantly shift in his favor.

Not by much. Any which way, it's the law of averages that determines the XP. You shouldn't lower XP awards just because PCs get lucky.

Time to flesh out Twink a bit more. With the 16 Intelligence I gave him a spellbook with: charm person, color spray, mage armor, magic missile, sleep, and shield.

I consider this list standard fair for a wizard. Feel free to disagree. Twink likes enchanting (without being an enchanting specialist), so I also chose charm person, although I have no plans of using it during this combat.

Fair enough. For a Wziard, I could see this. Not for a Sorcerer, but for a Wizard yes.

Twink has memorized shield, ray of frost x3, and sleep. This will be explained in a moment. He has "at least" one of every 1st level spell converted into a scroll for a total cost of 75 gold and 6 XP. I would feel comfortable doubling this number of scrolls, but you may not. Suffice it to say, if Twink is going to assault two hobgoblins by himself, then he is going to come prepared. Scribe Scroll is a huge advantage to any spellcaster, and one that any "thinking" wizard (with Scribe Scroll as a class ability) will utilize to their uttermost advantage.

Two problems. Number one, why is your Enchantment-loving Wizard foregoing the use of Daze, THE absolute best 0-Level Wizard spell? It does much more than Ray of Frost could ever do, after all. Also, PCs rarely, if ever, make so many scrolls. To do so eats up lots of XP for single-shot items. Most PCs are greedy with their XP. They certainly won't make tons of scrolls at LEVEL 1.

For the sake of examining this combat, Twink woke up this morning with the single-minded purpose of taking out the two hobgoblin bullies who have been throwing their weight around a small farming village. To maintain an "open field" encounter, we'll say the encounter transpires in a rice field. It is the sole intent of Twink to ambush the hobgoblins at a distance of 100 feet.

Now I couldn't help but notice that your ambush example paid no attention to the distance modifiers for Spotting and Listening, but rather, automatically presumed the hobgoblins heard and saw Twink cast his shield spell 100 feet away. Perhaps that will change now. I will assume the two hobgoblins are facing each other (rather than facing one direction) and have a wide periphery of vision between two of them. Twink will presumably emerge out of a forested area.

Twink is alone, unarmored, and only needs to speak one trigger word for shield or sleep.

Now let's change Twink's tactics somewhat. Before he gets to within 1 minute of the hobgoblins, he casts mage armor on himself. When he reaches the hobgoblins, he will either cast shield on himself (if they haven't noticed him yet) or sleep on the hobgoblins right away, if they have noticed him. Improved Initiative definitely favors Twink.

If sleep fails, Twink will cast shield on himself in the time it takes the two hobgoblins to move or move and act, after moving himself. I’ll explain. One of your hobgoblins moves directly behind Twink. Your javelin chucker moves 30 feet and then throws. Twink’s AC is 16. The hobgoblin has a +3 ranged attack but a -4 range penalty. Since everything takes place simultaneously, one of the hobgoblins has engaged Twink in melee. The javelin chucker therefore also suffers a -4 penalty for shooting into melee. With a -5 to hit, he will only succeed on a natural 20.

At this point, Twink will take a 5-foot step away and cast shield on himself. In the next round, he will travel directly around the hobgoblin nearest him (positioning the shield spell to protect him from both hobgoblins), deliberately provoke an AoO from the nearest hobgoblin against his AC23, and stop 5 feet away. Both hobgoblins will need a natural 20 to hit Twink from now on. From here, Twink will scroll cast color spray at the closest hobgoblin and save his scroll cast sleep spell for the javelin chucker.

Failing all of these spells, Twink will scroll cast magic missile, regular cast ray of frost x3, and then resort to melee or ranged attacks (all the while repositioning himself so that his shield spell protects him from both hobgoblins (provoking AoO's if need be) and using the 5-foot step rule to his greatest advantage.

If need be, Twink will scroll cast shield 1 round before the duration ends as needed).

If the hobgoblins are smart, they will flee before meeting their maker.

Well, in such a situation, your character has controlled every single aspect of the encounter. You have become the DM at this point, and get no XP whatsoever. You have totally lost this argument, man. Give it up! Go away! Leave us alone!

You're starting to just get annoying at this point! The Anubis says take your little controlled test scenario, spellcheck it and proofread it and make it look all nice and cute, turn it sideways, and stick it straight up your candy ass!

Oh, and by the way, before anyone gets on my ass for flaming, that was meant as a joke. He said something ridiculous, so I fired back the same.

-----

Anubis.

Because she’s an elf? Your Mialee argument is ridiculous. Because she’s an elf Mialee has 16 Dexterity and 10 Constitution. Because he’s human Twink has 14 Dexterity and 12 Constitution. Even Hennet and Nebin put their second highest roll into Dexterity. Please examine your arguments more closely before you post them. They are becoming increasingly non-sensical.

Your 100% controlled combat is the non-sensical thing. Why are primarily underground creatures standing in a rice field? Are they hungry or something?

You perception of sorcerers is a strange one. A smart sorcerer, realizing he has two spells at first level, chooses one offensive and one defensive. Don’t make things more complicated for yourself than they already seem to be. As for not taking sleep because it loses power later on? Dude, you’re a hypocrite. You took Combat Casting and Toughness! At least sleep will potentially keep the sorcerer alive long enough to reach a higher level (unlike your feat choices).

As for mind controllers not being common… how does that relate to this argument? I said mind controlling is a viable choice. The point you killed is one I didn’t even make! Talk about arguing with your own shadow! What I have made is a wizard who picked Spell Focus (enchantment). He’s not a specialist. He’s a generalist. You have made a meat sponge who forgot that he has pathetic wizard Hit Dice. Not to worry though, if you want to change your feat choices to something more “in keeping” with a wizard, I don’t think anybody will object.

I never said it wasn't a viable choice. I said it's uncommon. To test ANYTHING, you MUST (I repeat, MUST) use a COMMON scenario.

As for two offensive spells at 1st level, what you commonly see is foolishness. A sorcerer has access to simple melee and ranged weapons; that is their secondary sources of damage at 1st level. The second spell should always be defensive.

Regarding your take on choosing Improved Initiative at 1st level, yes I think it’s clear now. Apparently all your wizards anticipate soaking up hit points like cattle and take the Toughness feat to offset that fact. Your point here is no more persuasive than it was the first time you made it.

No, it's called being able to survive getting hit, which is bound to happen at some point.

My specialized situation is a generalist wizard. You have ceased making sense. But I am painting a clear picture of your games.

Ha, you ceased making sense a long time ago. You haven't used a single common denominator for any of your arguments.

What must be common for you are wizards who plan on taking serious damage at 1st level by charging into both melee and ranged battle with d4 damage spells and no defensive options to protect them. Got it.



Your dungeon analogy is equally silly. Yes, the game is called “Dungeons” and Dragons, but contrary to your law of averages, that also include cities and wilderness. Let’s see now … 2 out of 3 common settings … that’s 2/3 of the game! I wonder ... are dragons as common as dungeons in your game too?

Now you're just being stupid.

Hehe. Your best argument yet! But one that unfortunately speaks without experience. It’s not all fireballs and lightning bolts after all.

Those are examples Anubis. To be used or not, at DM discretion. They do not represent “the rule”. This combat example has so far used the standard hobgoblin with 2nd level fighter progression. You have officially started grasping at straws.

No, I'm using the "standard".

Completely unrelated (mostly because your XP values are 10 degrees removed from reality) but if I had a DM that gave me 14,400 XP for a single random dice role, I would fire them.

Do you always prematurely pat yourself on the back this quickly?

Always a sign of desperation when a debater needs to proclaim their own success … especially when their arguments are so weak.

Next time you respond to me (and you will) think about your points a little more before hitting the reply button. It will do everybody a world of good.

I only get upset when people cease debating in a logical manner.

 

[-Eä-]

Some minor thoughts from me (-:


I just wonder... What is wrong in giving 14 400 XP for rolling a single die? You can get 100 XP, 200 XP, and so on... If the situation presented itself, warranting 14 400 XP for a single roll, that wouldn't be too bad. I admit, the probability for such things happening should be very low, but say... If the probability of getting 14 400 XP for one single (relatively random, your example isn't absolutely random) is 1/1000000000, then it happens on average one in a billionth time, and if that circumstance applies to your character entirely by chance, why would that be wrong?

I bet in a real campaign, the given example hasn't been played, so if it would happen, what would be bad about it? Yes, the probability for such a circumstance to happen would be low, but this isn't a bad thing! Everything CAN happen it's just a matter of probability. Nitpicking about situations that would occur one in a trillion (?) times is therefore irrelevant, as, at least in my opinion, there should be room for everything to happen.

These logic may be applied to weird creations as well... As long as races, monsters standard relative to the campaign setting comes out right, then those utterly weird creations giving what seems to be a CR too high for the given challenge would have an utterly low probability of showing up as well, and given the situation, the reward would be out of proportion given the challenges relative to an even higher CR of "standard" beasts, this isn't just one of these "high-probability" happenings.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

I just got my computer working again last night, so let’s start at the beginning. I’ll keep this brief.

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seasong.

Not trying to get last word at all. It just looked like you were stepping off the debate and I was trying to respect that. Far be from me to do so again.

Even at 30 feet, I still think 2400 XP is excessive. Not sure where you got the idea that I didn’t? That’s why I start down this road in the first place.

The detail of my 100 feet example of combat was not an objection to Upper_Krust’s CR system per se. It was an academic look at the inherent flaws found in your tailor-made scenario from the same distance.

-----

Anubis.

I can see the city/dungeon/wilderness point flew right over your head.

Not getting hit versus taking damage. Whether sorcerers or wizards have one extra hit point or not won’t save them. They have a d4 for Hit Dice! Perhaps that point will sink in this time. Sorcerer and wizards avoid melee combat and cast from behind the meat sponges. Avoidance of melee combat is their hallmark.

Scrolls take up XP? Six 1st level scrolls = 6 XP. Wizards have no problem making scrolls.

It’s funny how both you and seasong accuse me of “controlling” every aspect of the encounter. I have controlled nothing except the distance and the actions of my own character (entirely possible during regular game play). I added the rice field for flavor, but the game mechanic geography is identical to the "open field" combat scenerio seasong presented. So rather than actually contesting how easy it is for Twink to kill both hobgoblins and earn (up to) 2400 XP (using Upper_Krust’s CR system) for a cake-walk battle, you both cry foul instead. I used logic and basic game mechanics to shore up my example. Perhaps you can do the same?

One more thing Anubis. Watch your mouth. Your abundance of ego and lack of wit are getting the best of you.

------

Hello -Eä-

Sorry for tagging a reply to you onto the bottom here.

Basically, I prefer to reward players with XP based on their accomplishments and role-playing (more than a single random dice roll).

 

[seasong]

seasong.

Not trying to get last word at all. It just looked like you were stepping off the debate and I was trying to respect that. Far be from me to do so again.

If I'd actually been upset, I'd have started that thread I suggested you start . I am interested in the discussion, I just don't think this is the right place to have it - we've discussed the aspects of the argument that have any bearing whatsoever on Upper Krust's system, and all that remains is a Fight Club discussion.

 

[Eldorian]

All I got to say, is that although me and Anubis often disagree, I do agree with him on the Constitution point. Everyone needs Con, especially low hit point characters with bad fort saves. Sure, having more dex means you can hit better with your xbow and might avoid a couple more physical attacks, but having a good con helps you soak damage, say from spells, or breath weapons. I mean, even if it's a reflex for half, that bit more dex isn't gonna help you save that often, but having one or 2 more hit points per level might just garantee that you won't die when you do fail that save. And for fortitude saves, you'll be thanking your lucky stars that you have a decent Con, cause most failed fort saves end with death.

I mean, for godsake, do you people only fight physical opponents? What happened to classic monsters that have effects that require fort saves, like medusa, and beholders, anything with a gas attack or death attack etc etc.. I had this same problem when trying to argue that saves are more important than SR cause they're more useful in more situations.

About the whole wizard vs hobgoblins, I say if the little tyke indeed does kill the hobgobs when all things are equal (ie, they start within double move of him, and neighter party is surprised) then he deserves alot of exp, because the record shows that it's a nigh impossible feat of luck. I mean, the wizard you're building seems to be as close to "munchkin first level hobgoblin killer" as you can get without making him totally lame. (like the coup de grace master that someone came up with, who'd play that dweeb? ) And he still doesn't have that reasonable of a chance of winning. Not reasonable enough that I'd risk it. (I'm pretty cautious when I'm not assured a rez after death).

As for enchantment being a useful focus... Not really. It's like building a character that's only useful if he can critical or sneak attack (imagine a rogue with base damage 1). Far too many creatures immune to his spells. See my suggestion about removing the immunity to mind effects from all creatures with intellegence, and UK agreed with me =) Then the enchanter / telepath would be a good route.

And again, I have to agree with Anubis that the average starting distance on combat is indeed between 60 and 20 feet. After all, what is torch light range, and what is darkvision range? Thats when they first SEE eachother, if you take my meaning. Considering that most dungeons don't have very long coridors or huge rooms, 30 feet is probably the mean.

Hmm.. hell froze over, I agreed with Anubis on not one but two points! Anyone wanna make some snowmen?



Eldorian Antar

 

[S'mon]

Hi There, UK!

Hi Sorcica mate! (U_K here)

Apologies for the slow reply, have been busy for the past 24 hours.

Okay, I'll try once again to make myself understandable Seems I having a hard time doing this.

HD size increase is me talking rubbish.

I mean a HD increase, a la the Half-Dragon template.

Okay. Well the Half-Dragon doesn't gain a HD increase as such - rather it gains a HD type increase.

Meaning that whatever your HD type was, it is now d12 like a dragon.

I understand that a lvl increase with wealth is +1CR. That's one of the basics of the entire system, as far as I understand.

Yep.

But I don't understand what the CR/ECL increase would be, if I added a template that increased HD by one. If I'm reading your replies correctly, it's +0.8/HD.

Not exactly.

It would only be +0.5 for one construct hit die; it would only be +0.75 per dragon hit die, etc.

But how do I apply this to a PC? A 5th level would have one CR modifier, a 9th level another. Very confusing and non-transparent for the player (and GM).

Well a 5th-level PC is typically CR 5. a 9th-level PC is typically CR 9.

If you were to add one Construct Hit Die their CR/ECL wouldn't change. But if you added two then they would each increase by +1 CR/ECL.

Or is it +0.8 CR total. That makes more sense to me, albeit a little low IMO, and not very equal to max. HP at ~+0.6 CR.

No.

Maximum Hit points gives about the same as a +0.5 CR bonus (total).

I think ( ) that I'm almost getting this, but a clarification would be very welcome.

Whatever it is I am sure I either know, or can work out the answer. Its just understanding the question that can be confusing.

Also, some insight on class abilities, as I mentioned in my previous post, would be more than welcome.

Basic factors are dealt with in Design Parameters (and also see Integrated Spell Levels), although I didn't really have room to outline every class feature in the pdf.

eg. The class feature to cast sorceror or wizard spells is +0.35/level.

The class feature to cast cleric spells is +0.3/level.

The class feature to cast druid spells is +0.25/level.

etc.

Anyway, thanks for your time and keep up the good work.

No problem mate, I appreciate the interest,

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hi there U_K

Okay. Well the Half-Dragon doesn't gain a HD increase as such - rather it gains a HD type increase.

Meaning that whatever your HD type was, it is now d12 like a dragon.

Ehh..I beg do differ. The half-dragon increase your HD type by one to a maximum of d12, according to the MM and DMG. I don't know if this is different in SS, but unless they've changed it, that's the case.

Not exactly.

It would only be +0.5 for one construct hit die; it would only be +0.75 per dragon hit die, etc.

I think I finally am able to make myself understandable. I mean a HD type increase. Fx from d8 to d10.

Well a 5th-level PC is typically CR 5. a 9th-level PC is typically CR 9.

If you were to add one Construct Hit Die their CR/ECL wouldn't change. But if you added two then they would each increase by +1 CR/ECL.

Yep, but what I meant was a HD type increase. So, what would it be then, in CR?

Basic factors are dealt with in Design Parameters (and also see Integrated Spell Levels), although I didn't really have room to outline every class feature in the pdf.

eg. The class feature to cast sorceror or wizard spells is +0.35/level.

The class feature to cast cleric spells is +0.3/level.

The class feature to cast druid spells is +0.25/level.

etc.

Yep, I'm aware of that It's just that abilities like Divine Grace and such are things are a bit difficult to gauge correctly (at least for me....).


Another thing. I'm afraid to open a can of worms, but the issuse of ability scores affecting CR or not is relevant when CR is used as ECL.
You yourself increase the value of regen. and fast healing when applied to a PC. I am of the opinion, that ability modiers are one of the deciding factors for a player wanting to play a monster of some sort. I know that the dssign parameters take care of most of the problems, except they don't.
There's a big difference in playing an ogre with +10 str, -2 dex and -4 int than playing another large creature with +10 or +15 to all stats.
I'm not sure what the solution should be, though

Well, I'm off for Easter. Have a good one, and looking forward to your reply.

 

[kreynolds]

I think I finally am able to make myself understandable. I mean a HD type increase. Fx from d8 to d10.

Ah. I get what you're saying. A d8 HD is +0.25. A d10 HD +0.3. If you're HD type is increased retroactively, you would just add the difference between the two (+0.05 per HD) to the ECL. For example, if a 6 HD creature, with a d8 for hit die, gains a template that increases its HD, its over CR should increase by +0.3 (6 HD x +0.05).

Do I have that right UK? Or am I way off the mark.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Ah. I get what you're saying. A d8 HD is +0.25. A d10 HD +0.3. If you're HD type is increased retroactively, you would just add the difference between the two (+0.05 per HD) to the ECL. For example, if a 6 HD creature, with a d8 for hit die, gains a template that increases its HD, its over CR should increase by +0.3 (6 HD x +0.05).

Do I have that right UK? Or am I way off the mark.

Nope, you're on the mark, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks So, if this template was to be added to a PC, it would be ECL +1 (saying 0.05 * 20 lvls)?

Or what? This does not seem balanced with UK's estimation that max HP should be approx. +0.5 CR.
If you're a 20th lvl fighter, would you rather have 200 hp and a few bonuses to spare (max hp) or 119 hp (the avg. of d12 at 19d12)?

Comments? (befor I leave for Easter - really got to get going.. )

 

[Anubis]

All I got to say, is that although me and Anubis often disagree, I do agree with him on the Constitution point. Everyone needs Con, especially low hit point characters with bad fort saves. Sure, having more dex means you can hit better with your xbow and might avoid a couple more physical attacks, but having a good con helps you soak damage, say from spells, or breath weapons. I mean, even if it's a reflex for half, that bit more dex isn't gonna help you save that often, but having one or 2 more hit points per level might just garantee that you won't die when you do fail that save. And for fortitude saves, you'll be thanking your lucky stars that you have a decent Con, cause most failed fort saves end with death.

I mean, for godsake, do you people only fight physical opponents? What happened to classic monsters that have effects that require fort saves, like medusa, and beholders, anything with a gas attack or death attack etc etc.. I had this same problem when trying to argue that saves are more important than SR cause they're more useful in more situations.

About the whole wizard vs hobgoblins, I say if the little tyke indeed does kill the hobgobs when all things are equal (ie, they start within double move of him, and neighter party is surprised) then he deserves alot of exp, because the record shows that it's a nigh impossible feat of luck. I mean, the wizard you're building seems to be as close to "munchkin first level hobgoblin killer" as you can get without making him totally lame. (like the coup de grace master that someone came up with, who'd play that dweeb? ) And he still doesn't have that reasonable of a chance of winning. Not reasonable enough that I'd risk it. (I'm pretty cautious when I'm not assured a rez after death).

As for enchantment being a useful focus... Not really. It's like building a character that's only useful if he can critical or sneak attack (imagine a rogue with base damage 1). Far too many creatures immune to his spells. See my suggestion about removing the immunity to mind effects from all creatures with intellegence, and UK agreed with me =) Then the enchanter / telepath would be a good route.

And again, I have to agree with Anubis that the average starting distance on combat is indeed between 60 and 20 feet. After all, what is torch light range, and what is darkvision range? Thats when they first SEE eachother, if you take my meaning. Considering that most dungeons don't have very long coridors or huge rooms, 30 feet is probably the mean.

Hmm.. hell froze over, I agreed with Anubis on not one but two points! Anyone wanna make some snowmen?



Eldorian Antar

Whoa! Okay time to jot this down . . . 04-15-2003 08:27 PM . . . Anubis and Eldorian on the same side! It's like the Unholy Alliance or something! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!