Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[S'mon]

Hello again Sorcica! (U_K here)

So is that +0.7 to CR total or what Or is it per HD.

Its just total. (I'm sure I specifically said 'total')

Might be hard to figure out if you want to use it on a PC with a template. That is, if it's 0.7 per HD one would have to adjust each and every lvl. Which makes me think it's total.

Yep, it is a total.

Also, what's the adjustment for increasing the HD by one?

Monster HD (Average) +0.65 (per HD)

Class Level (Average) +0.8 (per HD*)

*Without equipment as detailed under both 1. 'Class Levels' and 14. 'Wealth' in the pdf.

Thanks

No problem mate.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Monster HD (Average) +0.65 (per HD)

Class Level (Average) +0.8 (per HD*)

*Without equipment as detailed under both 1. 'Class Levels' and 14. 'Wealth' in the pdf.

If this is per HD, doesn't it become a hassle if applied to a PC that may advance quite some lvls? I mean, no effect at 1st lvl (+0,8 ECL), lvl adjustment at 2nd lvl (+1,6 ECL) - has to wait a lvl and then adjust again etc.

What am I misunderstanding?

It seems that it's much more appealing for a PC to max. his HP than increase his HD.



Comments?

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

DoH!!!

That's per size increase, right

 

[Judas]

Wow.. this thread looks good. I wanted to ask before downloading, is the link in the first post the latest version, or is there a different link to the latest version?

 

[S'mon]

Hi Sorcica! (U_K here)

If this is per HD, doesn't it become a hassle if applied to a PC that may advance quite some lvls? I mean, no effect at 1st lvl (+0,8 ECL), lvl adjustment at 2nd lvl (+1,6 ECL) - has to wait a lvl and then adjust again etc.

What am I misunderstanding?

Well, if the PC level goes up usually its accompanied by PC equipment, meaning the CR is +1.0/level.

But if you create a Template that adds 6 character levels (without increasing equipment accordingly) then it should only be ECL +5.

If you are creating a template that adds 6 Hit Dice to a character or monster then the CR/ECL is determined depending on the monster 'type'. Since Dragon HD is better than Vermin HD etc.

I outline in the pdf under 3. Hit Dice exactly how each type is rated. I also show in the design parameters how to balance your own classes and monster types.

It seems that it's much more appealing for a PC to max. his HP than increase his HD.



Comments?

Maximising your hit points has (on average) the same effect as increasing your Constitution Score by 7, in fact probably less net effect since it would have no bearing on saves and checks.

Probably more akin to 0.5 now that I think about it.

DoH!!!

That's per size increase, right

For what? Now I'm confused.

 

[S'mon]

Hey there Judas! (Upper_Krust here)

Wow.. this thread looks good.

Appreciate the interest.

I wanted to ask before downloading, is the link in the first post the latest version, or is there a different link to the latest version?

The latest released is Version 3 here:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46913

However, there are still a few minor tweaks needed to it, the main one I also mention in the thread I have just given you is about a revision to unrated ability scores which subsequently affected some of the Templates and Types/Subtypes.

The final version will of course be in the Immortals Handbook.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hi Sorcica! (U_K here)



Well, if the PC level goes up usually its accompanied by PC equipment, meaning the CR is +1.0/level.

But if you create a Template that adds 6 character levels (without increasing equipment accordingly) then it should only be ECL +5.

If you are creating a template that adds 6 Hit Dice to a character or monster then the CR/ECL is determined depending on the monster 'type'. Since Dragon HD is better than Vermin HD etc.

I outline in the pdf under 3. Hit Dice exactly how each type is rated. I also show in the design parameters how to balance your own classes and monster types.



Maximising your hit points has (on average) the same effect as increasing your Constitution Score by 7, in fact probably less net effect since it would have no bearing on saves and checks.

Probably more akin to 0.5 now that I think about it.



For what? Now I'm confused.

I meant that the +0.8 CR for a HD increase was per HD size increase.

It seems that this is not the case. Which means I'm still quite confused.

If I create a template, give it some abilities - including a HD size increase, and then apply the template to a PC, what do I do? I need to have a sort of 'final ECL', which isn't possible if the adjustment happens at each and every lvl.

I am afraid that I just don't get it. The CR with equipment is +1 per lvl. That makes sense. But is I increase HD and get equipment, would it be +1,8 CR per lvl?
That's what I mean by it being 'better' to have max HP for only +0,5-0,7 to final CR/ECL.

Also, I have difficulty understanding the example with the troll being a PC. It becomes a ECL 9 creature with the +2 from regeneration, but I don't understand the wealth. If that is +2 from 9 levels of PC wealth, wouldn't it be cumulative over and over again, as the ECL for wealth for 11 lvls is even more etc.
I hope I'm making myself clear. What am I misunderstanding? (quite a lot, it seems...)

I would love it if you could post ratings for the core classes i.e. what the class abilities are worth in CR. I think that abilities like Summon Familiar and Divine Grace are hard to rate.
It would also make it easier to create alternative classes, or a template that grants a d12 as HD, no matter what class, for instance. What would the CR be for that, BTW?

I'm really really interested in these books and in particular this system (as we haven't seen the books yet ..when, oh when) as this could very well be the 'ultimate Savage Species'

Thanks for any clarification.

Edit: added a question

 

[S'mon]

Hi there Sorcica! (Upper Krust here)

I meant that the +0.8 CR for a HD increase was per HD size increase.

It seems that this is not the case. Which means I'm still quite confused.

I am slightly confused myself because I don't seem to be able to pin point what you are asking me.

Increasing (or decreasing) a monsters size (and the effects this has on CR/ECL) is dealt with in the pdf.

If I create a template, give it some abilities - including a HD size increase, and then apply the template to a PC, what do I do? I need to have a sort of 'final ECL', which isn't possible if the adjustment happens at each and every lvl.

Can you please explain to me what a HD size increase is?

I know what a HD increase is.
I know what a size increase is.
But what is a HD size increase?

I am afraid that I just don't get it.

It should all become clearer when you explain what a HD size increase is.

The CR with equipment is +1 per lvl. That makes sense. But is I increase HD and get equipment, would it be +1,8 CR per lvl?
That's what I mean by it being 'better' to have max HP for like +0,5-0,7 to final CR/ECL.

Class Levels = CR +0.8/level
Class Levels with NPC equipment = CR +0.9/level
Class Levels with PC equipment = CR +1/level

Monster Hit Dice depends on the 'type' of monster to determine CR.

eg. Dragon = CR +0.75/HD
Giant = CR +0.55/HD
etc.

If you were to add PC equipment to them...

Dragon with PC equipment = CR +0.95/HD
Giant with PC equipment = CR +0.75/HD

also, I have difficulty understanding the example with the troll being a PC. It becomes a ECL 9 creature with the +2 from regeneration, but I don't understand the wealth. If that is +2 from 9 levels of PC wealth, wouldn't it be cumulative over and over again, as the ECL for wealth for 11 lvls is even more etc.
I hope I'm making myself clear. What am I misunderstanding? (quite a lot, it seems...)

The Troll gets ECL 9 from its own abilities. Therefore it should have at least 9th-level PC equipment.

9th-level PC equipment = CR +1.8 (9 x 0.2)

So the Troll would be CR 10.8 with 9th-level equipment. However, generally you want the level of equipment and the ECL to match.

If we add 10th-level equipment CR +2 (10 x 0.2) the Troll becomes ECL 11. (still doesn't match)

So if we add 11th-level PC equipment = CR +2.2 (11 x 0.2) to the Troll we get ECL 11.2 (This rounds down to ECL 11).

So now we have the Trolls ECL and Equipment both balanced at 11th-level.

I'm really really interested in these books and in particular this system (as we haven't seen the books yet ..when, oh when) as this could very well be the 'ultimate Savage Species'

I'm confident the CR/ECL system will just be the tip of the iceberg.

Thanks for any clarification.

We'll get to the bottom of this eventually...I hope.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Hi There, UK!

Okay, I'll try once again to make myself understandable Seems I having a hard time doing this.

HD size increase is me talking rubbish. I mean a HD increase, a la the Half-Dragon template.
I understand that a lvl increase with wealth is +1CR. That's one of the basics of the entire system, as far as I understand.
But I don't understand what the CR/ECL increase would be, if I added a template that increased HD by one. If I'm reading your replies correctly, it's +0.8/HD. But how do I apply this to a PC? A 5th level would have one CR modifier, a 9th level another. Very confusing and non-transparent for the player (and GM).
Or is it +0.8 CR total. That makes more sense to me, albeit a little low IMO, and not very equal to max. HP at ~+0.6 CR.

I think rolleyes: ) that I'm almost getting this, but a clarification would be very welcome. Also, some insight on class abilities, as I mentioned in my previous post, would be more than welcome.

Anyway, thanks for your time and keep up the good work.

 

[Anubis]

Anubis I'm sorry to say your wrong!



Fighter types never take the spell Improved Initiative, cause there isn't one!
Your right on everything else though

Whoops . . . Hahaha . . . *kicks typo*