Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust,

Hello again mate!

Got yet another question for you.

Fire away.

Checking out the spell-like abilities, I noticed that fireball cast as a 6th level sorcerer at will would add +0.045 to the CR/ECL. I'm curious; is there an additional ECL modifier for PCs, like there is for Fast Healing and Regeneration? A lot of people tote that fireball at will is much more powerful on a PC than it is on a monster, mostly because the monster won't get to use it that often (i.e., only in combat). Personally, I don't fully subscribe to that argument (since only abusive players or evil characters would hurl fireballs around outside of combat anyway), but I was curious as to your standpoint.

You could add +0.2 ECL per highest spell level. That was something I previously had in as both a CR and ECL modifier, but when I removed it from CR I also (perhaps mistakenly?) removed it from ECL too.

 

[Knight Otu]

Finally managed to download version 3. (So don't go and put up version 4 anytime soon. )

I like what I see for the most part.

Should Ability Scores be taken into account for ECL, as you mentioned before?

How should abilities like a drow's SR (the most common ability that scales with level, uncapped) that scale with level be calculated?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Knight Otu mate!

Finally managed to download version 3. (So don't go and put up version 4 anytime soon. )

No I doubt there will be a version 4...except in the IH.

I like what I see for the most part.

Glad to hear it!

Should Ability Scores be taken into account for ECL, as you mentioned before?

Any bonus above and beyond the 3d6 used to roll stats should be factored, so, yes.

How should abilities like a drow's SR (the most common ability that scales with level, uncapped) that scale with level be calculated?

Simply Rate the drow at +0.1/Level (extra) because of their spell resistance.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Howdy Seasong.

I have since read your subsequent post. If you wish to leave it at that, I understand. Otherwise, I submit the following insights.

An ambush is not a typical situation; neither is starting at 100 ft.

We could not disagree more.

Game-turners? Not likely.

Hehe. Your best argument yet! But one that unfortunately speaks without experience. It’s not all fireballs and lightning bolts after all.

We're talking about Level 2 Fighter hobgoblins, not common hobgoblins. These LEVEL 2 FIGHTER hobgoblins have 15 Strength, as per the DMG. See pages 52-53. don't forget to modify things based on page 58, meaning Dex +2, Con +2, Move Silently +4.

Those are examples Anubis. To be used or not, at DM discretion. They do not represent “the rule”. This combat example has so far used the standard hobgoblin with 2nd level fighter progression. You have officially started grasping at straws.

Actually, it'll be MUCH more than 2400 XP. In actuality, this is PEL -2 vs. EL 7. The actual award will be 14400. Again, remember the Wizard/Sorcerer in COMMON situations will have only a 1-3% chance of survival. You wanna roll 1d100 for me? If you roll 1-3, you get 14,400 XP.

Completely unrelated (mostly because your XP values are 10 degrees removed from reality) but if I had a DM that gave me 14,400 XP for a single random dice role, I would fire them.

As for perspective, I have killed each and every one of your points in turn.

Do you always prematurely pat yourself on the back this quickly?

Anyway, you have lost. Give it up.

Always a sign of desperation when a debater needs to proclaim their own success … especially when their arguments are so weak.

Next time you respond to me (and you will) think about your points a little more before hitting the reply button. It will do everybody a world of good.

 

[kreynolds]

You could add +0.2 ECL per highest spell level. That was something I previously had in as both a CR and ECL modifier, but when I removed it from CR I also (perhaps mistakenly?) removed it from ECL too.

Me again!

When you say "add +0.2 ECL per highest spell level, do you mean that if the highest spell level is 3rd, add +0.6? Or, do you mean that if the creature has two 2nd-level spell-like abilities and one 3rd-level spell-like ability, add +0.2 for the one 3rd-level spell-like ability?

Also, what if the spell-like ability, say a fireball by a 6th level sorcerer, can only be used so many times per day, say three times? Should the +0.2 still apply? Or is that only for "at will" abilities?

 

[seasong]

I have since read your subsequent post. If you wish to leave it at that, I understand. Otherwise, I submit the following insights.

Also known as, "I get the last word, hahaha!" . That's fine. I can even agree that when a character controls every factor of a combat, they can outperform their normal CR. So now the question is, so what? Upper Krust's rules handle this as a situational modifier. Where is the problem?

My original objection to 2400 XP was for a 1st level wizard who gets the drop on my two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins.

Ah, something on topic! If he gets the drop at 30 ft, he's earned it. If he gets the drop at 100 ft, use a situational modifier to EL. If he gets the drop because he controls every factor of the combat, it's arguable that he should get a tiny fraction of the XP, if any. This is in the rules, both core and Upper Krust's.

What, exactly, are you objecting to?

Time to flesh out Twink a bit more.

I thought you were just going to give a few insights? Naw, I guess not. I'll leave the rest of your post alone - it's off topic at this point, although I'm sure the arguments are fascinating. Perhaps you could start another thread? I would even be willing to continue to debate the specifics with you there.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Me again!

Hello mate!

When you say "add +0.2 ECL per highest spell level, do you mean that if the highest spell level is 3rd, add +0.6?

Yes.

Or, do you mean that if the creature has two 2nd-level spell-like abilities and one 3rd-level spell-like ability, add +0.2 for the one 3rd-level spell-like ability?

No.

Also, what if the spell-like ability, say a fireball by a 6th level sorcerer, can only be used so many times per day, say three times? Should the +0.2 still apply? Or is that only for "at will" abilities?

You still calculate all Spell-like Abilities as described in the pdf...

...then you add +0.2 x highest spell level (total).

 

[-Eä-]

Average damage and statistics, charming and so on...

As for average damage: You are wrong, Anubis and Seasong: The probability for getting average damage within a given range increases for every time you roll:

If you say that you need 2*p, where p is the average for one spell, or more as a sum, the probability is greater than 0.25, in fact 0.50 as Sonofapreacherman pointed out ( I think) ,but if you say you need p or greater on each of the rolls you are correct. I would guess that you would need 20 or more as a sum. Then again, if you need the a sum one less than the average, the probability is greater than 0.5, and it's quite easy to calculate those probabilities.



As for the enchantment path:

There are many wizards that takes Spell Focus:Enchantment. Indeed, I would say it's more valuable than Spell Focus: Evocation (though less valuable than SPell Focus: Transmutation), and claiming that this is only for specialised wizards is not valid: It's just a matter of opinion.

Granted: Giving int. the hose isn't something a wizard would do, but in a randomised world, sometimes you encounter wizards with higher dex than int, though that wizard isn't particularily likely to be a PC.

(In general, I agree with that con is the next most important stat for wizard: Dex is easily obtained from polymorphing and so on. HP from con isn't obtained as easily)

As for Charming spells: I play an Enchanter in a campaign with 16 other players, and while being utterly ineffective against undead, shadows and the like, the character's charm spells are EXTREMELY effective vs. other monsters, particularily combined with Enervation. Indeed, using charm spells, you mey gain more than a mere kill when using them properly!


I don't know why I wrote this, I just did when I was about to get to bed.

 

[seasong]

Re: Average damage and statistics, charming and so on...

As for average damage: You are wrong, Anubis and Seasong:

You did not read what I said. Or rather, you are not talking about the same thing as I was.

As for the enchantment path:

I believe, if you read what I said, that you will find my admission on this matter.

 

[Knight Otu]

After using the system a bit, I think there might be instances where you overrate the impact of some abilities.

Critical Hit immunity - while this is a broad category that prevents damage from several sources, I think it should not add more than 0.5 to CR, but due to it's broad application, it should add an additional 0.5 to ECL (basically splitting the +1 to CR in half). It is a powerful ability, but it is usually more advantageous for PCs than for monsters.

There seems to be an instance in the Incorporeal subtype that is overrated, but I could not identify it yet.

Large and larger sizes might be slightly overrated. Maybe it could be advantageous to split it into the main benefits, Reach and Speed?

I think you miscalculated the Ooze type.