Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[Upper_Krust]

'Lo Upper Krust!

Hey Dark Wolf mate!

I finally had a chance to reveiw version three of the appendixes.

And frankly, I'm impressed!

The new sub heading font is an easy read.

In fact the whole thing seems to be cleaned up and more....readable.

Glad you like it.

The Design Parameters section will be very useful, although most of it is common sense.

Indeed.

The revised magic items is again common sense. (I've been using similar rules for awhile).

Glad you like them.

The revised feats was something I suspected you were putting in this version and it is pretty good. But, a question, why remove Improved Metamagic? Was it overpowered? I think so.

It really leads to problems down the road when you start stacking effects. Personally I would allow all Meta-magic to stack provided you can meet the spell level.

Anyways much kudos on a job well done.

Appreciate the support mate, and thanks for the feedback.

Well see ya later.

Keep up the good work.

Y'all come back now, y'hear!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi U_K!

Hi Alzrius mate!

Quick question: am I misreading the document (I am looking at version 3), or is there really nothing to increase the CR of creatures based on adding divine abilities?

Thats because (as the sidebar on page 6 attests) that all Immortals Templates are determined in Chapters 2: Divinity and Three: Portfolios. Immortal Abilities are determined in Chapter 4: Powers.

All my templates and abilities are already rated.

Although I am having some difficulty with the abilities because I created far too many; outlining the variants is swelling the numbers to well over 400, so I am currently trying to figure out a way to keep that in check.

I'm guessing this to be due to that old saying of "gods shouldn't just be monsters", yes?

Nope.

But even so, having that would be helpful. Is it not in there because that'd reveal too much of the rest of the book.

Something like that.

...or am I just misreading it, and it is in there? I know its not due to you wanting to wait for the ELH and D&Dg to be released, since epic monsters are mentioned in there.

...well technically the CR/EL pdf is only a playtest document, otherwise refering to the ELH monsters would probably be breaking copyright laws or somesuch...*whistles to self*

Thanks!

Anytime mate!

 

[seasong]

Oh my. I can see the mutual admiration society between Anubis and Seasong has already begun!

I am sorry if you feel we are picking on you. It is the burden of a minority opinion, whether wrong OR right. I think you're mostly wrong, but then, I would . And we were in disagreement until you came along. Thank you for helping us... find each other.

First, a few difficulties:

You keep speaking of attacks of opportunity like they happen all the time. Once again, see the above 5-foot step rule. This will negate attacks of opportunity in most cases.

You are correct. This does not significantly alter your chance of surviving a fight with 1-2 awake hobgoblins after your spells run out, but it is true that you might possibly survive, and that spell casting with 5 ft steps will prevent AoOs during the first rounds when you HAVE spells.

As per shield, it will be cast any time the wizard wins Initiative (ambush or no). Like I said, get those defensive spells off first. It’s right there in my example, so I’m not sure why you’re asking.

I'll get back to this. Suffice it to say here that... sometimes I agree with you, and sometimes I disagree. In the scenario you propose, I think shield is a poor choice (see further below).

You say an ambush is worth less ECL? Well if you had said that sooner, I would have agreed immediately. Remember, this debate is predicated on 2400XP being too much for a single arcane spellcaster defeating two 2nd fighter hobgoblins.

It's been said elsewhere. I was talking about a typical situation. An ambush is not a typical situation; neither is starting at 100 ft. Either one would provide a reduced EL, just like it would provide a reduced CR in the core rules. This is common sense.

However, after playing it out, I think it might, at worst be a -1 EL. Those hobgoblins are damned hard to beat.

My chances of doing average damage twice is ½ that of doing it the first time?

No. You have a 50% chance of doing it the first time, and a 50% chance of doing it the second time. You only have a 25% chance of doing it twice in a row, and if even one wakes up, you are most likely hosed.

This wizard is tweaked for charming and mind control.

No he isn't. He's not optimized at all. Granted, neither was my original Twink . But you dropped your INT score, and for a wizard, that's like cutting off his legs, particularly for a save-or-sleep Twink.

For example, if I drop your DEX and WIS to 10, and raise INT to 18, he loses 0.5% chance of success in this one situation (note: that moves him from 19.7% to 19.2%), but gains an overall +2 to spell DC, which will help him in more general situations. Furthermore, even for this one situation, I can twink his butt out way more than you have, using a high INT and STR. An optimized sleep + coup de grace build would look like this:

STR 14, DEX 10, CON 8, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 8

Wizard: Specialist, enchantment (opposed: conjuration)
Feats: Improved Initiative*, Spell Focus (Enchantment)
Spells: Shield, Sleep (INT bonus), Sleep (specialist)
Spear 1d8+2 (x3)

* Note: I have rethunk my analysis of the wizard and improved initiative, and gone through the numbers, and it DOES help a wizard who is by himself a massive amount... enough to be considered a "must have" if the wizard is likely to be by himself. A smart wizard, of course, will never ever ever be by himself, but Twink's already there, so we might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.

Chance of success at 10-30 ft: 24.4%
That's a +5% gain over your stats. Do you still think DEX is important to a wizard?

That's as high as I can make it go. I can't pump STR any more, and since I already coup de grace 151 times out of 160, any further bonuses to damage are negligible compared to the loss of DEX.

I went with your feats because for an enchanter specialist who expects to be alone, they are invaluable .

You'll notice that I targetted the % effects that had the highest impact on his final chances; Improved Initiative, the damage roll on the spear, and the Spell DC. While initiative does impact the overall chances, a +2 or +4 to DEX is a marginal impact compared to the benefit gained from +2 or +4 to STR or INT.

Now, with that out of the way, he still has a 3 in 4 chance of being meat, under my original scenario and tactics.

Now, your proposed scenario and tactics:
1. Start at 100 ft.
2. Twink's plan: win initiative, cast shield, cast sleep, OR lose initiative, cast sleep.
3. Hobgoblin's plan: Spread out to avoid wizard group shots*. Kill wizard.

We will use your Twink to save time arguing . However, we will make one change to him: make him an enchanter specialist, so that he has one extra sleep spell. You'll see why soon enough.

* Yeah, I know you might argue this with me; how do they know he's going to use area effect spells? My answer is thus: he's a wizard. Even if they don't know about sleep, spreading out reduces the impact of many, many spells such as magic missile and fireball.

Note: Another good reason for 30 ft is because we can calculate the overall probability a LOT easier. At 100 ft, it becomes a very, very complex situation.

1. Twink attempts to win Initiative: 52.5% chance of success.

If he wins Initiative:
2. Casts shield.
3. Hobgoblin 1 moves 120 ft to be on opposite side of Twink.
4. Twink gets an AoO, but has no weapon at hand to use (hands must be free to cast). Even if he did, he has a negligible chance of critting and killing the hobgoblin.
5. Hobgoblin 1 does not get an attack.
6. Hobgoblin 2 moves 30 ft, then throws a javelin. At 70 ft, he has a -4 to his attack.
- Attack -2 vs AC 19
- 1.66% chance of killing Twink outright.
- 3.33% chance of doing 4 hp or less.
7. Twink steps 5 ft towards HG 2. No AoO.
8.
- As a free action, Twink changes the shield's direction to HG1.
- Twink casts sleep on HG 1.
9. HG1 makes a Will save against DC 15: 70% chance of succumbing.
10.
- If HG1 does not succumb, he steps 5 ft to Twink. No AoO.
- - Attack +3 vs AC 19
- - 12.5% chance of killing Twink outright.
- - 12.5% chance of doing 4 hp or less.
11. HG2 moves 30 ft closer (40 ft) and readies an attack...

If HG1 succumbed, HG2 will throw his javelin at HG1 this round (having seen the shield in action), and take the -4 to do stunning damage (+4 prone, +4 pinned/not moving, -2 range) for a total chance to hit of +4 vs AC 14 (50% chance of waking HG1). He will then continue to stay at distance.

If HG1 did not succumb, HG2 will throw his javelin at Twink, and maintain his distance. Note that Twink is no longer protected by the shield against HG2.

Twink has one sleep spell left. If HG1 did not succumb, or HG2 succeeded in waking HG1 up, he should save it until they are both together, and in the meantime, run. If HG1 did succumb and HG2 failed to wake him (net 35% chance of that succession of events), he can try to cast sleep on HG2 and pray.

These hobgoblins were not tweaked out (if they were, I'd have gone with some throwing feats for HG2).

Total chance with throwing shield first: 70% for HG1, 50% that HG1 is not woken up, 70% for HG2 = 24.5% chance that everyone goes to sleep like good little monsters, not counting initiative or chance of taking a total of 5 hp from all attacks.

If Twink loses initiative, his chances are the same except that the hobgoblins have a better chance of hitting him, thanks to the lack of a shield spell, and once HG1 is within range, he is most likely going to die pretty soon.

 

[kreynolds]

Indeed, when you are defining them on a case by case basis.

Actually, I tend to do that. One of my games has an "exotic twist" in that the two players have templates, which in come aspects, are like a toned down Paragon template. But, one thing I noticed immediately is that the paragon template has less and less of an impact on CR/ECL as the base creature advances in levels/monster hit die. So, I keep an eye one it. Whenever they level, I elvaluate the impact of the template on their character and adjust their ECL if needed. I do this for two reasons; 1) I like to be aware where things begin to break down so that I can fix them before disaster occurs, and 2) it helps me tremendously to know what their actual CR is.

Your system serves perfectly for this, so thanks.

No the problem was there was no way I could predict what class level a deity would take.

Right. So I guess the choices are 1) track the ECL changes with each level, i.e. its a pain in the rear, or 2) just pick an average and roll with it.

The pdfs or the Print Version?

All these things are fairly standard priced (typically by page count) these days are they not?

Both, actually. I do half of my prepwork and designing with a book in front of me and the other half completely electronically, so its advantageous for me to have both.

Yes, most books pretty much follow a standard pricing method, but I can't remember what your page count was lookin' like recently. Are you getting near 320?

 

[Anubis]

Oh my. I can see the mutual admiration society between Anubis and Seasong has already begun!



Let’s take some of the steam out of that society shall we?

-----

Anubis first.

First of all, my standard array is taken directly from Mialee. So I can’t take credit for it. Moreover, Dexterity is more important than Constitution for a wizard. Let’s see now ... do I plan to take damage as a wizard (when my Hit Die is a d4) or do I plan on not getting hit in the first place. Hm. Tough choice. By your reasoning, I should play my 1st level wizard as a meat sponge. Yeah, that makes sense.

Even with a little more Dexterity, the Wizard is still gonna get hit. Most Wizards shoose to add 5 to their hp at Level 1 by taking Toughness. Dexterity is never more important than Constitution. NEVER. The only reason Mialee's Dexterity is higher than her Constituion is because SHE'S AN ELF. Ya' know, Dex +2 Con -2?

Thus your first point has been killed.

Toughness and Combat Casting? Talk about short sighted planning. Any wizard with a half a brain is going to take just as many defensive spells (to prevent damage) as offensive spells (to inflict damage) and any wizard worth their salt is going to max out their Concentration ranks. Moreover, taking a 5 foot step back before casting negates the need for a Concentration saving throw more often than not.

Wizard yes, Sorcerer no. No Sorcerer will take Mage Armor, and Shield is likely not going to be one of the Level 1 spells chosen. Also, such a thinker will not even take Sleep in the first place if it's a Sorcerer, because that spell loses ALL power by Level 5. The Wizard should indeed have both spells, though, although I haven't seen a single Wizard not memorize a Magic Missile at any level.

Thus your second point is killed.

Taking Spell Focus (enchantment) is a fine choice. It follows in the footsteps of many a mind controller. A perfectly viable concept for any wizard.

Viable perhaps, but not common. To judge this, we can only use a COMMON situation. A Wizard is almost NEVER going to pick this route. Only an Enchanter would. The Enchantment spells are overly weak for hte most part. Let's not forget that out of all gamers, I would bet only less than 5% actually pick this route. We're talking about COMMON situations, remember?

Thus your third point is killed.

Sorcerers who take the splat route would be hugely foolish to take more than a small handful of offensive spells. Intelligent sorcerers leave plenty of room for neck-saving spells like shield. Please, if you are going to quote popular opinion, at least choose the opinions that make sense.

It's still not likely to be one of the first spells choseb. I commonly see Magic Missile and Sleep or Magic Missile and either Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, or Chill Touch.

Thus your fourth point is killed.

Improved Initiative is no less standard for wizards than it is for rogues who want to get their Sneak Attack in first. Reacting first is crucial for wizards trying to getting off that defensive spell before combat begins. Fighters? I haven’t met a fighter yet who took Improved Initiative at 1st or 2nd level. They’re usually too busy trying to qualify for a prestige class.

Not gaming long, eh? I would say fighter types pick Improved Initiative as an early spell over 70% of the time. I have NEVER (that would be 0%) seen a Wizard or Sorcerer take it at Level 1. 90% of the time they do take it at Level 3, but never at Level 1.

Thus your fifth point is killed.

As debates go, I’ve lost nothing. You have so far affirmed very little or nothing.

I've affirmed everything. You used a specialized situation that is NOT common. To judge accuracy, you must use common factors. Things that are most likely. I have done so and you have not. I used the NPC stats out of the DMG for all involved parties.

Most combat begins within 30 feet? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You are attempting to pigeon hole something that cannot be quantified. Encounters can start at many different ranges; 30 feet is only advantageous for melee characters. Non-melee characters are going to widen that distance every time.
Perspective starts with seeing the big picture Anubis. Start there.

A STRONG majority of combat takes place in dungeons. Dungeon combat, on average, starts at 30 feet, within melee range within one round. This is a fact, not a guess. 30 feet is most common, thus it is what must be used.

As for perspective, I have killed each and every one of your points in turn. You can get some perspective when you start using COMMON and LIKELY situations.

-----

Seasong.

This wizard is tweaked for charming and mind control. Not simply casting sleep. As wizards go, he will be quite formidable in that capacity at both high and low levels. Don’t judge a school by the number of spells in it. Those enchantment spells are game-turners. How you can rationalize that a charm/mind controlling wizard will not help a party is beyond me. There is more than one way to defeat your enemies. It just takes a little imagination. Greater Spell Focus (enchantment) would be another choice.

Game-turners? Not likely.

Not sure why your hobgoblin has a Strength bonus with his longsword. Typical hobgoblin Strength is 11.

We're talking about Level 2 Fighter hobgoblins, not common hobgoblins. These LEVEL 2 FIGHTER hobgoblins have 15 Strength, as per the DMG. See pages 52-53. don't forget to modify things based on page 58, meaning Dex +2, Con +2, Move Silently +4.

As per Improved Initiative, see above. Improved Initiative makes more sense for wizards than it does for fighters. Going first is not as important to fighters, precisely because they can usually soak up the damage of whatever creature reacts first; wizards cannot, even with (of all wasteful feats) Toughness. So feel free to tweak your standard hobgoblins with it. I’ll be keeping Improved Initiative.

Again, we're talking about LEVEL 2 FIGHTER hobgoblins, not standard hobgoblins. If we are talking standard hobgoblins, then by the system, they are only CR 1. We are talking about LEVEL @ FIGHTER hobgoblins, however, and they thus have the stats as per the DMG. This includes Improved Initiative. That means CR 2.

Again, Improved Initiative helps the wizard get off their defensive spell. Hardly the “specialized situation” you claim it to be.

Wrong again. Like I said, Improved Iniative is RARELY taken at Level 1 by Wizards and Sorcerers. I have been a DM long enough to know such things.

You keep speaking of attacks of opportunity like they happen all the time. Once again, see the above 5-foot step rule. This will negate attacks of opportunity in most cases.

As per shield, it will be cast any time the wizard wins Initiative (ambush or no). Like I said, get those defensive spells off first. It’s right there in my example, so I’m not sure why you’re asking.

You say an ambush is worth less ECL? Well if you had said that sooner, I would have agreed immediately. Remember, this debate is predicated on 2400XP being too much for a single arcane spellcaster defeating two 2nd fighter hobgoblins.

Actually, it'll be MUCH more than 2400 XP. In actuality, this is PEL -2 vs. EL 7. The actual award will be 14400. Again, remember the Wizard/Sorcerer in COMMON situations will have only a 1-3% chance of survival. You wanna roll 1d100 for me? If you roll 1-3, you get 14,400 XP. Anything else you die, permanently. That is about the same as this scenario.

My chances of doing average damage twice is ½ that of doing it the first time? Not sure where you got that math from. Average damage is average damage (every time). Even so, shield is already up and running. A wizard behind a shield spell stands a much greater chance of defeating an injured hobgoblin or two. That’s when they pull out their scribed scrolls...

Pretty bad with statistics are you? The chances of you doing average damage once is 50%. Doing it twice is 50%*50%, or 25%.

Anyway, you have lost. Give it up.

 

[seasong]

Erg. I just realized I'm hijacking at this point .

I mean, it's important to establish the EL XP values, but I've spent waaay too much time on wizards vs hobgoblins, just to establish that that one, single scenario is balanced regarding XP given for beating them.

It holds up. Heck, it holds up well.

In situations where it doesn't hold up, you use situational modifiers... and I've come to think that +/- 1 EL if the wizard/uberarcher starts at a moderate range (situation favors one side over the other) is just fine.

 

[kreynolds]

Upper_Krust,

Got yet another question for you. Checking out the spell-like abilities, I noticed that fireball cast as a 6th level sorcerer at will would add +0.045 to the CR/ECL. I'm curious; is there an additional ECL modifier for PCs, like there is for Fast Healing and Regeneration? A lot of people tote that fireball at will is much more powerful on a PC than it is on a monster, mostly because the monster won't get to use it that often (i.e., only in combat). Personally, I don't fully subscribe to that argument (since only abusive players or evil characters would hurl fireballs around outside of combat anyway), but I was curious as to your standpoint.

 

[seasong]

Under most circumstances, fireball at will is functionally identical to fireball 4-5 times as a sorcerer. The only difference is that the sorcerer can choose to put something else in that slot, and the at will user is still good for the next fight.

Now, against an army of low-level enemies, with a circle of your own warriors to protect you, that fireball at will becomes immensely more useful... because you can do in a lot more of the enemy army than the sorcerer can, regardless of what spells he picks. But I don't think Upper Krust's system is really designed for mass combat, the same as the original CR system isn't.

Mass combat changes everything, after all .

 

[Dark Wolf 97]

Anubis I'm sorry to say your wrong!

I would say fighter types pick Improved Initiative as an early spell over 70% of the time.

Fighter types never take the spell Improved Initiative, cause there isn't one!
Your right on everything else though

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

Actually, I tend to do that. One of my games has an "exotic twist" in that the two players have templates, which in come aspects, are like a toned down Paragon template.

But, one thing I noticed immediately is that the paragon template has less and less of an impact on CR/ECL as the base creature advances in levels/monster hit die. So, I keep an eye one it.

The relationship between CR and EL I advocate handles this sort of thing perfectly.

Whenever they level, I evaluate the impact of the template on their character and adjust their ECL if needed. I do this for two reasons; 1) I like to be aware where things begin to break down so that I can fix them before disaster occurs, and 2) it helps me tremendously to know what their actual CR is.

Your system serves perfectly for this, so thanks.

Glad I could help.

Right. So I guess the choices are 1) track the ECL changes with each level, i.e. its a pain in the rear, or 2) just pick an average and roll with it.

Exactly.

Both, actually. I do half of my prepwork and designing with a book in front of me and the other half completely electronically, so its advantageous for me to have both.

Yes, most books pretty much follow a standard pricing method, but I can't remember what your page count was lookin' like recently. Are you getting near 320?

Maybe 336.