Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[demiurgeastaroth]

A question about Party EL and CR

Let's say you have a 4-man party of 20th level characters. Under this system:

What whould be a moderate encounter (CR+0)?

How many experience points would each member get for taking out a Titan (CR28)?

Here's my estimation of question 1, let me know if I'm right or wrong.

"The PEL is always their actual level divided by 4"

According to table 1-1A, the actual EL of the group is 18. The above quote suggests that PEL therefore equals 14 (this is where I fear I may be wrong).

So an appropriate (moderate) challenge would be something that is EL14, for example a single CR 10 critter. That doesn't seem right.

If I'm misunderstanding that quote, and apply no modificaton, then the moderate encounter would be a CR20 critter, which seems reasonable.

Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Upper_Krust.

I'm trying to make sense of your mixed opponent rules.

I still don't understand how 241.6R% of a Base Unit EL 24 comes to 26?

I thought that perhaps it was 241.6R% of the Great Red Dragon CR56. But that would come to CR135 and an EL of 29.

What am I doing wrong?

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

I still don't understand how 241.6R% of a Base Unit EL 24 comes to 26?

Hey, I can answer that one!

If you look at table 1-2 Encounter Level by Number of Opponents, the modifier for 2 opponents is +2, and 3 opponents is +3.
241.6% is greater than 2 but less than 3.

Darren

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

demiurgeastaroth.

Thanks, that cleared it right up ... and also gave me an idea.

-----

Upper_Krust.

If you can give me a definite answer on this subject ... that would be great.

Right now I am calculating the two 2nd level fighter hobgoblins to be worth CR 2 each (1.8 with NPC wealth +0.2 for darkvision). That's EL 5 each. Because there are 2 of them, EL 5 jumps to EL 7.

Now, assuming rounding down is new rule, do I or don't I add darkvision as a CR modifier to a monster that advances as a character class (assuming their total racial modifier does not exceed +0.5)?

If I don't ... those hobgoblins become CR 1/EL 1 each and EL 3 together.

If I do ... then here's my thought.

Looking at Table 1–2, make the stipulation for 1.5 "mixed" opponents also the same modifier for 2 opponents (when not calculating mixed opponents) and then stagger all the other modifiers accordingly ... ending with
24–31 Opponents at EL +8.

That would make those hobgoblins (with a darkvision +0.2 CR bonus) become CR 2/EL5 each and EL 6 together.

Not much different from the current inflated XP problem. But now apply both changes.

Without the darkvision modifier, and using the above changes to Table 1–2, those hobgoblins would be CR 1/EL 1 each or EL 2 together.

Hopefully one of all of these solutions can solve the inflated XP problem at lower levels.

 

[Eldorian]

Sigh.. one silly typo and the rest of my post means nothing. And you haven't even addressed the points I made, that constitution helps protect against magical attack. Do you not fight magical foes? There is a lengthy thread/poll over in the rules forum about whether dex or con is the most imporant secondary stat for caster types, good info there. I'm not argueing that dex helps more in melee combat (although I would still say con is better, but that is prehaps personal preference, as I prefer barbarians when doing a melee character). I was saying that con is overall more useful for survival, especially against magical attacks (supernatural too, like breathweapons and gaze attacks). Sure, in your fight against the 2 hobgoblins, dex might be your best chance for survival, but overal its con you have to worry about.

UK. I'm fine, was being polite and everything, but that last comment was very offensive.. Implying that I revel in ignorance is the fastest way to get me angry. Spent too much of my life in the pursuit of knowledge.

As for my threat of viscousness.. well... it could be implied that I meant that I would stick to him and follow him around annoying him.. hehe.. a good punishment on the message boards.

Eldorian Antar

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

A few more quick questions...

What's the EL of a single CR ½ creature? EL ½?

And if I add +2 EL to a CR ½ creature, how do I calculate the final EL?

EL ½ + EL 2 = EL 2 ½? Round down to 2?

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

And you haven't even addressed the points I made, that constitution helps protect against magical attack.

That’s because I didn't feel a need to address it. Fortitude saving throws aside, I still feel that a high Dexterity comes up during battle much more often and in ways that are far more useful to sorcerers or wizards than a high Constitution. For someone who is devoted to the "pursuit of knowledge" I can't help but notice that you overlooked every one of my supporting points made on that subject. The list of constantly used combat applications alone should be enough to persuade.

 

[Eldorian]

Constantly aplicable? If you avoid melee combat, and have protection from arrows, then AC means nothing.

Initiative is rolled once a combat, and is not that important once the cycle starts (I know people that prefer lower initiatives so they can react instead of act).

Ranged combat is about useless to a mage after a certain point when his base attack bonus garantees he'll miss, and ranged touch attacks either almost never miss (hitting slow, tough things) or miss just as easiliy as your regular attacks (monks, air elementals, ghosts, things that actually have decent touch acs tend to have very good touch acs).

There are very few reflex save attacks that don't deal damage and saving is only for half. And when an attack deals damage, constituion is better. It doesn't matter that you have a slightly higher chance of mitigating some of the damage from that fireball (or breath weapon or most other mass damage spells that you aren't necissarily the primary target of), eventually you'll fail one of those saves. And without a decent con, that might be the last save you failed. In fact, if it's coming from a similiar leveled wizard, it is probably the last save you'll fail. Your arguements that spells will protect you is true.. spells do protect from physical combat. Why do you need dex for ac when your spells prevent you from ever getting hit? Fly, or even alter self, and protection from arrows well protects you. But supernatural effects, like spells and what not, are still dangerous.

I didn't over look your points, they are minor. Magical attacks are a big portion of the game, and the more dangerous between physical and magical for mages. Dex is trivial for the magical attacks, and Con protects against most attacks (will saves aside).

Eldorian Antar

 

[S'mon]

Hi there Shalewind! (U_K here)

UK: Is your CR system open and ready for publish? I know you are still waiting for the next SRD update for the whole thing in ImHB, but I take it the CR system is ready to go?

There are a few tweaks here and there and it will definately need a serious proofread, but more or less its good to go.

Its technically not 'open' as such just yet, but I don't mind people using it for personal use.

It will be OGL like much of the IH when its finally published.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Eldorian.

You just based your entire argument on a 3rd level wizard with protection from arrows. At 1st level, Twink is going to need Dexterity in order to reach 3rd level (alive). Please stick to the example in the future rather than changing the parameters of the debate.

-----

Upper_Krust alert!

I just tripped across Table 1–3. Don't know why I missed it before. If Twink (at CR1/EL1) defeats those two hobgoblins (at CR2 each/EL7 together) with the ease of my examples, he is going to earn a whopping 38400 XP with your system. If he already has 600 XP like I've been saying, he just flew from 1st to 9th level (heck, even without 600 XP).

Even with the two changes I recently suggested (making the hobgoblins CR1 each/EL2 together) Twink still nets 2400 XP (flying from 1st to 3rd level) which is right back where this problem started.

All because he was alone (EL –4 according to Table 1–3).

I really think you should reconsider calculating PEL as EL. Right now, I can't see any other solution.