Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)

[S'mon]

Laying down the law.

Oi!

All I care about is the subject under discussion, not what you think you have shown and proven before. That just makes you sound frustrated and condescending, which is unfortunate since the points you made were good.

Okay guys, kiss and make up. I don't want any bad blood in this thread y'hear me.

I think Anubis has made strides to curb the tone of his posts, and from what I know of him he doesn't mean to be so inciting.

To quote from Reservoir Dogs:

"No way, no way. Tried it once, it doesn't work. You get four guys all fighting over who's gonna be Mr. Black. But they don't know each other, so nobody wants to back down. No way, I pick. You're Mr. Pink. Be thankful you're not Mr. Yellow."

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation

I couldn't get away - family stuff. It is Easter.

Ah well. I think a lot of people had the same problem, because the attendance was really WAY down on last August. I think holding it over Easter was a bad idea. Personally I can't see the logic behind it.

(I live in County Durham, which is about as far away from GenCon as you can be and still be in England.)

I did travel from Belfast though.

 

[S'mon]

Hi all!

Gotta let the real S'mon get on the computer for awhile, so I'll finish catching up tomorrow. Cya all.

 

[demiurgeastaroth]

Re: Laying down the law.

Oi!
Okay guys, kiss and make up. I don't want any bad blood in this thread y'hear me.

I can't find a kissy kissy smiley, so the message icon will have to do, okay Anubis?

I think Anubis has made strides to curb the tone of his posts, and from what I know of him he doesn't mean to be so inciting.

Well if he is trying (and he is! (stop it demiurge, no biscuit for you))), I'll do the same

Mr Black

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Hadn't we already ascertained that there was a miscalculation in determining EXP, because a factor had been calculated twice!?

Upper_Krust.

Actually, as I understand those revisions, the total XP you award to a party of four would remain the same. But if a smaller party than four succeeds to defeat an opponent, then rather than gain the whole amount, each party member only receives 1/4 of the XP total.

Meaning, as I understand those revisions, each 2nd level character receives 1800 XP (1/4 of 7200 XP) for defeating +7 EL difference creatures (that should actually represent elite soldiers rather than the nemesis of the game).

Once again (and at the risk of sounding like a broken record; hopeless now I realize) this problem is solved by calculating PEL as EL. I think your own revelations will eventually lead you to this conclusion (unless you can somehow justify that 1800 XP is an appropriate amount of XP for each of my exampled hobgoblins).

 

[Eldorian]

Most likely the way he will do the revision is to get rid of the "PEL based on number of characters" concept, and just take the EL of the average CR of the party. This leads to easier calculations. In order for the qualitative description of relative power (sorry if I sound like a textbook), he would need to add the original PEL concept after the exp section. Either that, or he could force a calculation of PEL before the exp, and do the division by four of exp rewards, and make them individual. This leads to ugly EXP factors on the chart, however. The chart may be open to revision though, makign easier numbers. I do not know if those numbers are set in stone or not. In addition, the PEL description needs to be reworded; right now it's confusing, based on the misinformation that we've all noticed.

Eldorian Antar

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL ability scores and giants

Hi all! (U_K here)

I have about an hour before I have to get ready to go home, so lets see if I can catch up...

I don't know. A lot of creatures, all through the MM CR's, have no ability to deal with flying creatures. (Even a surprising number of Epic creature.)

Indeed. Mostly 'animal' creatures though (By that I don't necessarily mean the animal 'type').

Once a player gets this, it can be a massive advantage in a wide range of encounters, and if it's a natural ability it can be used in a lot of out-of-combat situations, to bypass hurdles etc.
It's not so much of a problem at high levels (since everyone who wants it can have it), but over levels 1-9 is very useful.

Indeed, its an advantage, but its not going to be the backbone of every encounter.

I was just about to ask whether points should be awarded for giving creatures the standard array, etc., but you anticipated me

I'll update the ability scores section in V.4 to state when and when not to factor ability scores.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: Re: Re: ECL calculation and Ogres (no I'm not finished yet )

Hiya mate!

<Re: Ogre ECL>
Well, I don't.

Thats certainly your prerogative mate. You may well be right(?).

I agree that it is nonsensical. It is, however, the rules.

They apparently have Challenge Rating rules which work just as well.

The DMG specifically says that magic items (of the armour, clothing, or jewellery sort) resize to fit their wielder, and that halflings can wear armour made for humans (and vice-versa by extrapolation).
It also states that size shouldn't be an issue most of the time. If halfling sized gear can fit humans, then human sized gear should fit ogres (after magically resizing).

Utterly preposterous. I don't entertain anything so blatantly foolish.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Re: ECL calculation and Demons

Hello again mate!

But a creature's potential threat can't be separated from is how many of its abilities it is likely to be able to use in the encounter.

Exactly...and with my system we don't need to.

It should get some benefit form having a wide range of abilities, because that means it is flexible and able to handle different situations, but there should IMO be a diminishing returns benefit for large numbers of abilities.

There is a diminishing return for large numbers of abilities - thats the raison d'etre of the new Encounter Levels relationship.

I agree that the lesser abilities, by virtue of having a lower spell level (and also needing greater and greater points to bump up the CR) does handle this to an extent.

I think its pretty good myself.

But I look at those demons and devils CRs and can't help feeling, based on my experience playtesting them (a lot), that they are overrated.

Part of this is because people are so ingrained on Challenge Ratings that they fail to see the big picture (ie. the relative Encounter Levels).

The Pit Fiend may be CR 27, but it is only EL +1 higher than a 19th-level Fighter.

 

[seasong]

Flying creatures: If the party can fly and attack from a distance, and the opponent can't attack flying creatures (and the situation the GM has cooked up doesn't force them down in order to fight it), there should be very little XP for the encounter. However, this is easily handled by situational EL modifiers.

If the situation is reversed, this is also easily handled by situational EL modifiers... but I find it a rare situation when the party can't find some way of dealing with flying creatures.

Flight allows you to change the tactical dimensions of a fight, but so does dimension door, spell resistance, and immunity to bludgeoning weapons. It's just one more thing to have a countermeasure for, and (like the ability to create walls of ice) one which can modify the situation... hence the situational EL modifiers, rather than a hefty CR cost.