Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[kreynolds]

And as I said above, that was a proposal. As UK will attest, I have not set my mind on anything as of yet because this is a very complex issue.

You missed the point.

 

[kreynolds]

Probably not, but Fireball is.

I agree.

We can't just add more for some SLAs and not others.

Sure you can. It's done for everything else. A 10d6 cold ray attack is cheaper than a 10d6 force ray attack. Why? One is better than the other. Fireball is better than Tongues and Gentle Repose, so it should be more expensive than the latter.

You can't qualify such things else things become far too complex.

And you can't arbitrarily slap modifiers of +0.06 on every single third level spell-like ability useable at will. +0.06 for Gentle Repose and +0.06 for Fireball illustrates a broken system. Gentle Repose at will simply is not as powerful as Fireball at will. An implementation following your suggestion would be a flawed mechanic, and there simply is no denying that.

 

[Anubis]

And you can't arbitrarily slap modifiers of +0.06 on every single third level spell-like ability useable at will. +0.06 for Gentle Repose and +0.06 for Fireball illustrates a broken system. Gentle Repose at will simply is not as powerful as Fireball at will. An implementation following your suggestion would be a flawed mechanic, and there simply is no denying that.

That's not a problem with my modifier, but would rather be an issue about the spell level. All Level 3 spells should be roughly similar in power and usefulness. If Tongues and Gentle Repose aren't worth as much as Fireball IYO, then lower the spell level of Tongues and Gentle Repose to Level 2 or even Level 1.

I think my proposal there works, though, all things considered.

 

[kreynolds]

That's not a problem with my modifier, but would rather be an issue about the spell level.

I think that's more of a copout than anything else.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

As I mentioned to Anubis last night, one of the problems I have with his SLA solution is that it factors Spell Level twice which surely makes it overly complicated...Occams Razor and all that.

 

[Anubis]

Hi all!

As I mentioned to Anubis last night, one of the problems I have with his SLA solution is that it factors Spell Level twice which surely makes it overly complicated...Occams Razor and all that.

First off, what's tis Occams Razor crap?

Second, as I mentioned, adding another modifier AT ALL means counting SLAs twice altogether, so there's no problem with counting spell leve twice.

To you, kreynolds, if it's of the same level, it's supposed to be equally powerful. If they are not, then the spell level is at fault. That's not a copout, that's a fact.

 

[kreynolds]

To you, kreynolds, if it's of the same level, it's supposed to be equally powerful. If they are not, then the spell level is at fault. That's not a copout, that's a fact.

Maybe, maybe not. At any rate, it could very well be a simple matter of not looking at all sides of the problem. Tongues can be a quite useful spell, as it can often be the fine line and last effort to avoid combat with a group of creatures that don't speak or understand your language, or it can be used to parlay with a powerful outsider. It just isn't used very often, but when it _is_ used, it can be a quite powerful spell, thus it's given spell level.

However, this system doesn't care about anything _but_ spell level. It doesn't take into account the rare occasions that it will be used. Tongues can be a very useful spell, but the mere fact that it is used so infrequently does not and should not lessen its spell level. I don't expect this system to be able to account for things like this, but I do expect the brains behind the system to keep it in mind. Thus, I don't think a flat adhoc modifier to all spell levels should be used. It's bad enough that every spell _already_ is rated with static numbers, but it doesn't need to be made any worse.

I don't know what would be a better way of handling this, but I _do_ know that this isn't it. Maybe we should look at it another way.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

First off, what's tis Occams Razor crap?

If you don't know what it is how do you know its crap?

Essentially given two methods that accomplish the same thing you always choose the simplest.

At the moment I am off the mind that the Spell-like Abilities are good enough as is.

Second, as I mentioned, adding another modifier AT ALL means counting SLAs twice altogether, so there's no problem with counting spell leve twice.

There is a problem with it, using the same factor twice is redundant.


Incidently I double checked the Hit Dice factors with the recently changed Class/Hit Dice Design Parameters and a few worked out slightly higher; notably Dragon (now +0.8) and Outsider (now +0.75) Hit Dice to name but two.

 

[kreynolds]

UK. Could I ask a huge favor of you? OK, it's not really huge, but it would be a great help to me. Could you take a look at the fire genasi from the FRCS and let me know what you come up with? I actually came up with below 0.5, but I can't remember the specifics right now.

 

[Anubis]

Well . . . Since healing abilities are the only ones that really get out of whack when used at will, however about CR +1 for every At Will healing ability?