Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Anubis]

After about two minutes of real deliberation, I finally figured out the problem. The problem is AT WILL SPELL-LIKE ABILITIES. There are thousands of ways to make even the monsters seem underrated with the current ratings. Consider a monster with the following list of SLAs:

Fly
Improved Inivisibility
Dimension Door
Wall of Force
Cone of Cold
Chain Lightning
Heal
Horrid Wilting
Meteor Swarm
Mordenkainen's Disjunction

If a monster can use all of these at 25th level at will, the CR modifier is +3.6875 . . . This combination, however, would make a monster all but invincible until the upper reaches of the ELH, making a paltry +3.6875 seem pretty dumb. Invincibility for a mere 4 levels?

Them being at will is what really makes this combination deadly, and that's for a monster using them, not PCs!

My possible solution is to simply remove At Will abilities altogether. Go by number of times per day only, and use that calculation to figure out everything. See? Problem solved. At will abilities are just too strong for ANYONE when they're the right abilities.

 

[kreynolds]

I think getting rid of at will abilities all together is a little drastic. I definately agree that cone of cold at will is pretty powerful, but is burning hands at will really that bad? At only 5d4, not remotely. Basically, I really like the idea of at will powers, and while I recognize that some spells at will are extremely powerful, not all spells fit into that category.

 

[Anubis]

You missed the point. The point is that certain combinations of at will SLAs are severerly underrated because those SLAs are at will. If you do not remove at will SLAs altogether, you should at least put some system in place to limit them in SOME way.

Perhaps a point of subdual damage per spell level for each use per day over five would be a good idea . . . Like a "drain" of sort, and Regenration is unable to restore that subdual damage no matter what.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Anubis mate!

You missed the point. The point is that certain combinations of at will SLAs are severerly underrated because those SLAs are at will. If you do not remove at will SLAs altogether, you should at least put some system in place to limit them in SOME way.

There already is a limiter; the design parameters.

Perhaps a point of subdual damage per spell level for each use per day over five would be a good idea . . . Like a "drain" of sort, and Regenration is unable to restore that subdual damage no matter what.

That would defeat the 'At Will' premise.

If a spell-like ability is over powered then that means the spell itself is overpowered; simple as that. Hopefully 3.5 will fix all the problem spells a few of which I touched upon in the CR/EL pdf.

 

[Anubis]

Okay, I have a new proposal. UK has proposed adding an additional 0.2 per SLA for "At Will" SLAs. The problem with this idea is that it ignores the level of power of the SLAs involved and overinflates many listed creatures.

My proposal is that we instead add 0.02 per spell level per SLA. This takes power into consideration and stops the overinflation.

For instance, let's say a creature can use Magic Missile, Haste, Cone of Cold, Heal, and Meteor Swarm "At Will" at 20 level. Calculate the base CR value as per the PDF. We then add the "At Will" value. For this set . . .

Base: CR 1.2

UK value: CR +1
Anubis value: CR +0.48

UK Total: CR +2.2
Anubis Total: CR 1.68

Now this is a very light example. Let's use something a bit more drastic, the PIT FIEND. See MMp.53 for the full SLA list. It has a total of 76.5 spell levels over 21 At Will SLAs along with Meteor Swarm and Symbol 1/day.

Current value: CR +3.39575
At Will Base: CR +3.25125

UK value: CR +4.2
UK Total: CR +7.59575

Uh, sure. The pit fiend may have nice abilities, but they certainly aren't worth a whopping SEVEN levels. They are more useful than the current number, however. Let's try this again.

Anubis value: CR +1.53
Anubis Total: CR +4.92575

That's more like it! Any questions?

 

[kreynolds]

You missed the point. The point is that certain combinations of at will SLAs are severerly underrated because those SLAs are at will.

I didn't miss the point at all. Consider encounter distances. If the PCs can't spot the enemies at night, the enemies will likely get surprise on them. But if the PCs can see better in darkness than their enemies, they have a better chance of getting the jump on them. So, running with that though, let's take a look at our options.

Take two parties; one party of 4 human PCs and one party of 4 human NPCs. They're the same level. They don't have any equipment but their non-magical swords. They're have the same mix of classes, a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric. It's night. It's dark. Neither side has a distinct advantage over one another.

But, as a DM, you want the encounter to be a challenge. So, you change the party of 4 human NPCs into a party of four dwarven NPCs. Same level. Same mix of classes. Same equipment. But the NPCs have an advantage over the humans. They can see better. So, they have a better chance of getting a jump on them. Now, obviously, the PCs aren't going to like this, so let's change them into dwarves too. Now both sides are even, as they both have darkvision.

Now, let's take a simple low-light vision spell and give it to the NPC party wizard, and as luck would have it, a new moon is out tonight. See what just happened there? The NPCs now have access to far better vision by utilizing two seemingly small abilities at the same time. Apart, low-light vision and darkvision are fine in their own right, but together, it's a whole different matter. The PCs can see 60 feet in darkness, as can the NPCs, but the NPCs have an advantage that the PCs don't. They can see twice as far in low-light conditions as well.

Normally, with darkvision, you can see only 60 feet in darness, then nothing. With low-light, you can't see anything in darkness. Low-light requires light to extend your vision. Darkvision doesn't require any light, but it helps you see only a short distance. If you have both, you can see fairly well in total darkness, something the PCs can do just fine, since they're also dwarves, but you can also see really well in low-light conditions, something the PCs can't do at all.

Low-light vision. Seemingly harmless. Darkvision. Seemingly harmless. Apart, they're not much to worry about. Together, they are quite useful.

Most of the combinations you are talking about work like this. In their separate parts, they are quite normal, but if slapped together, they can be quite dangerous.

Is the fireball spell at will powerful? Sure. Is the energy immunity (fire) spell at will powerful? Not so much, I'd argue, as there are four other energy types to choose from. But, put them together and what do you get? A PC or NPC that throw fireballs at his feet any time someone gets to close to him, and he can do this all day long until everyone is dead.

So, I didn't miss your point at all. I simply disagreed with _part_ of your point. I agree that certain combinations of powers can be over the top, but I certainly don't think it warrents the removal of all at will abilities. After all, really, how terribly power are fireball at will and tongues at will when combined? No more so than they are separately.

 

[kreynolds]

Any questions?

Do you really think that Gentle Repose at will is worth an additional +0.06 more than it normally would be? I doubt it.

 

[Anubis]

I didn't miss the point at all. Consider encounter distances. If the PCs can't spot the enemies at night, the enemies will likely get surprise on them. But if the PCs can see better in darkness than their enemies, they have a better chance of getting the jump on them. So, running with that though, let's take a look at our options.

Take two parties; one party of 4 human PCs and one party of 4 human NPCs. They're the same level. They don't have any equipment but their non-magical swords. They're have the same mix of classes, a fighter, wizard, rogue, and cleric. It's night. It's dark. Neither side has a distinct advantage over one another.

But, as a DM, you want the encounter to be a challenge. So, you change the party of 4 human NPCs into a party of four dwarven NPCs. Same level. Same mix of classes. Same equipment. But the NPCs have an advantage over the humans. They can see better. So, they have a better chance of getting a jump on them. Now, obviously, the PCs aren't going to like this, so let's change them into dwarves too. Now both sides are even, as they both have darkvision.

Now, let's take a simple low-light vision spell and give it to the NPC party wizard, and as luck would have it, a new moon is out tonight. See what just happened there? The NPCs now have access to far better vision by utilizing two seemingly small abilities at the same time. Apart, low-light vision and darkvision are fine in their own right, but together, it's a whole different matter. The PCs can see 60 feet in darkness, as can the NPCs, but the NPCs have an advantage that the PCs don't. They can see twice as far in low-light conditions as well.

Normally, with darkvision, you can see only 60 feet in darness, then nothing. With low-light, you can't see anything in darkness. Low-light requires light to extend your vision. Darkvision doesn't require any light, but it helps you see only a short distance. If you have both, you can see fairly well in total darkness, something the PCs can do just fine, since they're also dwarves, but you can also see really well in low-light conditions, something the PCs can't do at all.

Low-light vision. Seemingly harmless. Darkvision. Seemingly harmless. Apart, they're not much to worry about. Together, they are quite useful.

Most of the combinations you are talking about work like this. In their separate parts, they are quite normal, but if slapped together, they can be quite dangerous.

Is the fireball spell at will powerful? Sure. Is the energy immunity (fire) spell at will powerful? Not so much, I'd argue, as there are four other energy types to choose from. But, put them together and what do you get? A PC or NPC that throw fireballs at his feet any time someone gets to close to him, and he can do this all day long until everyone is dead.

So, I didn't miss your point at all. I simply disagreed with _part_ of your point. I agree that certain combinations of powers can be over the top, but I certainly don't think it warrents the removal of all at will abilities. After all, really, how terribly power are fireball at will and tongues at will when combined? No more so than they are separately.

And as I said above, that was a proposal. As UK will attest, I have not set my mind on anything as of yet because this is a very complex issue.

 

[Anubis]

Do you really think that Gentle Repose at will is worth an additional +0.06 more than it normally would be? I doubt it.

Probably not, but Fireball is. We can't just add more for some SLAs and not others. You can't qualify such things else things become far too complex.

 

[green slime]

Hey there Green Slime mate!



There are two threads where you can download a pdf of the CR/EL Revision Document in full.

However, I recently lost all my bookmarks during some computer trouble and I don't have a direct link anymore...actually just realised there is a link at the start of this thread. DOH!

Link to Version 1.0 which has been downloaded 364 times (thanks for the support all)

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45989

Does anyone still have the link to Version 3.0? Nevermind I will just post Version 3.0 here.

However you may be better off waiting a week (or so) until I have version 4.0 up and running.

Hello

Just a belated "thank you" for posting the link! Didn't get round to reading this thread again until now.

Thanks again!

And I hope the weather there is better than here. We are having a typical Swedish summer I tell you...