Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Except in v3 you used both. Kinda double kill, don'tcha think?

It might have been then, but it isn't now since I only use design parameters.

Like you said, in the case of feats such as these, their prerequisites absorb a lot of the disparity. But, what if there are no prerequisites? That's exactly what happens when you put 1 point of Con damage on a monster. His ability has no prerequisites. He didn't have to purchase particular feats, skills, and levels in order to get that ability. He simply has it. You never see a feat that grants Crippling Strike or the Wounding Property without any prerequisites, and you're not taking that into account (as far as I can tell - you didn't include your design parameter for ability damage). But, if you do happen to know of feats such as those that I mention, then by all means, point them out. But, I do understand that's what design parameters are for.

You overlook the obvious.

A single 1 point Ability Damage attack for a monster actually rates slightly less than a feat.

Therefore it requires no prerequisites.

I would be totally happy allowing it as a feat (provided it was not an iteritive attack).

Still, a design parameter can't cover everything. For example, Constitution damage on a touch attack would be served well to have a design parameter limiting to a certain amount of hit die, this I fully admit. However, it would also be service to include a design parameter that takes into account the usefulness of the ability based upon the type of hit die. In other words, a design parameter limiting 1 point of Constitution damage to blah HD works fine on a Wizard or Fey, but it doesn't take into account the usefulness on a fighter, who can slap you around all day long with ease using touch attacks.

I don't see what this has to do with the Ability Damage rating in and of itself!?

I don't either. That's why three feats don't equal a level. They equal nine-tenths of a level. I could be pursuaded to drop that down a little though, maybe +0.25 or 0.225/bonus feat.

+0.2 - you know it makes sense.

Such as?

Such as all the above feats I previously listed.

Do you mean like the Initiative enhancement from Oriental Adventures? You will hopefully take note that Improved Initiative has no prerequisites, so the fact that the enhancement equals the level in power of a feat is irrelevant.

No, I didn't mean that.

I meant that feats parallel +1 enhancement bonuses or +1 market modifier special abilities in terms of power.

No feat without prerequisites equals the level of power in a shocking burst weapon. As soon as you read this, you'll know I'm right.

If you could explain it philosophically (which is the difficult part*) I would allow a feat that permitted attacks to deal +1d6 electrical (or any energy based) damage.

*I would allow it for any creature with the air/electrical descriptor.

Weapon Special Abilities can easily become feats provided you can explain how.

Weapon Specialisation adds +2 damage - which parallels in power a +1 enhancement bonus.

Perhaps, but that's neither here nor there. I wasn't talking about ability drain. I was talking about a weapon enhancement that deals ability damage, and though ability damage never gives you hit points, you mentioned it anyway. Just pointing out that one has nothing to do with the other, not challenging your numbers. That's all.

Glad to hear it.

I disagree. At will, assuming four times per round, I think its the equivalent of 2.5 to 3 feats.

Remember it doesn't multiply (unlike standard Ability Damage) upon a critical hit. So it would be lower.

However, that does tell me that I need to lower my base down a bit, probably to +0.5.

True. In that case, I'll go with it being equal to 2.5 to 2.75 feats then.

Nearly there.

That's no doubt ultimately the easiest route. But, it's not perfect.

...tread carefully.

How does that design parameter take into account the power levels of a Fey and Outsider? It doesn't. A 10HD fey doesn't have as good a BAB, while a 10HD outsider's BAB is twice as good, meaning he's far better at hitting people with touch attacks, meaning the design parameter doesn't take into account that his Ability Damaging touch attack is far more powerful on him than it is on the Fey.

These factors are handled in and of themselves. I don't see any problem.

Fey BAB is handled when you determine Fey HD.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not saying such a design parameter is flawed; Just that it's too bad it doesn't cover everything (I'm picky that way).

I think you are clutching at straws here Don Quixote.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

I just think that +.5 for DR 10/adamantine is a hair too much. That's all. OK, maybe a couple of hairs.

I think all these ratings are in some part subjective; so you are better going for simplicity when two methods give similar results.

 

[kreynolds]

Alright, alright!!! I get it! I suck!

Just kidding. Ok. Looks like I need to chew on my numbers again (I did at lunch, and I wasn't happy with my results...not by a longshot).

At the very least, you saved my butt in regards to my Flame Freak prestige race. His 2nd-level abilities are about to kick in, and I almost nerfed him by dropping his special ability down in power a bit.

 

[kreynolds]

UK. Here's another one. With the mechanics of energy resistance having changed, has your formula changed from +0.02/point of energy resistance? The way it works now, I figured its value would be doubled, wouldn't it?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Alright, alright!!! I get it! I suck!

I wouldn't say that, its not like I get everything perfect on the first go myself.

Just kidding.

Ok. Looks like I need to chew on my numbers again (I did at lunch, and I wasn't happy with my results...not by a longshot).

Don't be too hard on yourself - in fact be easy on yourself and let me do all the hard work so you don't have to.

At the very least, you saved my butt in regards to my Flame Freak prestige race. His 2nd-level abilities are about to kick in, and I almost nerfed him by dropping his special ability down in power a bit.

Glad I could help.

 

[Upper_Krust]

UK. Here's another one. With the mechanics of energy resistance having changed, has your formula changed from +0.02/point of energy resistance? The way it works now, I figured its value would be doubled, wouldn't it?

Yep.

 

[kreynolds]

Yep.

Awesome! I don't suck!!

 

[kreynolds]

By the way...interested in my numbers for Fast Healing? *nudge, nudge*

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy mate!

By the way...interested in my numbers for Fast Healing? *nudge, nudge*

I'll take a look?

No promises though.

 

[kreynolds]

I'll take a look?

No promises though.

I'm just wondering how close I am to your numbers.

+0.35/point per round

So...how close am I?