Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Sonofapreacherman]

Anubis.

If you do this, then halflings and gnomes become ECL -1 PC races. You can't count size for goblins while not counting it for gnomes and halflings.

Of course. Nobody said otherwise. But what you successfully glaze over is that both gnomes and halflings come with a *host* of racial abilities, which far outweigh the racial abilities of both goblins and kobolds (who have a few meager situational bonuses at best). When it comes to these racial abilities, only Upper Krust can tell us how he rated them, but suffice to say, the number of racial abilities afforded to gnomes and halfings give them a definitive advantage over their goblin and kobold opponents (which should obviously be reflected in their CR).

You have to count it for all and make gnomes and halflings ECL -1 or not count size at all even for goblins.

Once again, count for all. See reasons above. Gnomes and halflings have the advantage.

Or do you honestly think that goblins are weaker than gnomes and halflings?

Abso-firetrucking-lutely.

They aren't. All three races are pretty equal in power.

In a pigs eye perhaps.

It's been shown time and again that doing this is IMPOSSIBLE because it doesn't account for negative CRs (which happen to take up a majority of Level 1 monsters, by the way). You would have 16 kobolds being an EL 1 encounter!

Then negative challenge ratings need a slightly different rule set to compliment the existing fractional proposition. That's all that means.

As for your 16 kobolds = EL 1 encounter, your calculations couldn't be further off the mark. A kobold rates CR 0.2 to CR 0.3 (depending on whichever system of NPC wealth is finally embraced).

Hit Dice: +0.55
Speed: +0.1
NPC Wealth: +0.05/+0.10/+0.15
Size (calculated separately): -0.5
Miscellaneous racial abilities: Negated from calculations because their combined total does not exceed CR +0.5 or fall below CR -0.5).

I would say kobolds should *definitely* rate CR 1/8 using this system (or CR 0 using my newly proposed system below), but as of right now, they either rate as CR 1/8 or CR 1/4 (depending on NPC wealth), which means that sixteen of them equate to either a CR 5 or CR 6 encounter.

Your talent for exaggeration (on either end of the spectrum) serves you well Anubis.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Upper Krust.

Now let's get back to that *slightly different rule set* I just mentioned to account for negative Challenge Ratings (before Anubis has a synaptic meltdown in his next reply).

Here goes.

CR 0.66(R) = CR 2/3 = EL 0
CR 0.50 = CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 0.25 = CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 0 = CR 0 = EL -3
CR -0.25 = CR -1/4 = EL -4
CR -0.5 = CR -1/2 = EL -5
CR -0.66(R) = CR -1 = EL -6
CR -1 = CR -2 = EL -7
CR -2 = CR -4 = EL -8
CR -3 = CR -3 = EL -9
(etc.)

I'm not sure if CR -0.66(R) is needed. Perhaps you can impose your brand of UK algebra in there. Let me know what you think.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Upper Krust.

Now let's get back to that *slightly different rule set* I just mentioned to account for negative Challenge Ratings (before Anubis has a synaptic meltdown in his next reply).

Here goes.

CR 0.66(R) = CR 2/3 = EL 0
CR 0.50 = CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 0.25 = CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 0 = CR 0 = EL -3
CR -0.25 = CR -1/4 = EL -4
CR -0.5 = CR -1/2 = EL -5
CR -0.66 = CR -1 = EL -6
CR -1 = CR -2 = EL -7
CR -2 = CR -4 = EL -8
CR -3 = CR -3 = EL -9
(etc.)

I'm not sure if CR -0.66 is needed. Perhaps you can impose your brand of UK algebra in there. Let me know what you think.

The problem with the above (before we discuss anything else) is that it doesn't factor CR 1/3 = EL -2

Before we take decimal CR into account everything else must look like this:

CR 2/3 = EL 0 = EL 2/3
CR 1/2 = EL -1 = EL 1/2
CR 1/3 = EL -2 = EL 1/3
CR 1/4 = EL -3 = EL 1/4
CR 1/6 = EL -4 = EL 1/6
CR 1/8 = EL -5 = EL 1/8
CR 1/12 = EL -6 = EL 1/12
CR 1/16 = EL -7 = EL 1/16

The above is set in stone. The only problem is the exact balancing of decimal CR to fractional CR.

But I'll have this sorted over the weekend (along with the racial quandary).

 

[Anubis]

"One side incapable of effective retaliation." = EL +8/-8

Still not convinced thats the right rating.

Any comments?

If one side is TOTALLY incapable of ANY retaliation, then there should be no XP award whatsoever unless the PCs are the ones to have directly cause the condition wherein their opponents could not retaliate.

Example 1: PCs surprise opponents by making the floor disappear and dumping them into lava to melt. The PCs get XP because they caused the inability to retaliate.

Example 2: PCs enter a chamber where dozens of epic characters are in a form of sleep (think Highlander Endgame's Sanctuary here) and kill them all. NO XP WHATSOEVER.

 

[Anubis]

Anubis.

Of course. Nobody said otherwise. But what you successfully glaze over is that both gnomes and halflings come with a *host* of racial abilities, which far outweigh the racial abilities of both goblins and kobolds (who have a few meager situational bonuses at best). When it comes to these racial abilities, only Upper Krust can tell us how he rated them, but suffice to say, the number of racial abilities afforded to gnomes and halfings give them a definitive advantage over their goblin and kobold opponents (which should obviously be reflected in their CR).

Once again, count for all. See reasons above. Gnomes and halflings have the advantage.

Abso-firetrucking-lutely.



In a pigs eye perhaps.

Mind offering that little thing called proof? I look at these and see three equal races in every way. +4 against giants and a handful of pointless cantrips do not an advantage make.

Then negative challenge ratings need a slightly different rule set to compliment the existing fractional proposition. That's all that means.

As for your 16 kobolds = EL 1 encounter, your calculations couldn't be further off the mark. A kobold rates CR 0.2 to CR 0.3 (depending on whichever system of NPC wealth is finally embraced).

Hit Dice: +0.55
Speed: +0.1
NPC Wealth: +0.05/+0.10/+0.15
Size (calculated separately): -0.5
Miscellaneous racial abilities: Negated from calculations because their combined total does not exceed CR +0.5 or fall below CR -0.5).

I would say kobolds should *definitely* rate CR 1/8 using this system (or CR 0 using my newly proposed system below), but as of right now, they either rate as CR 1/8 or CR 1/4 (depending on NPC wealth), which means that sixteen of them equate to either a CR 5 or CR 6 encounter.

I should point out now that monsters do not get NPC wealth, so that is not counted. You REALLY need to actually start paying attention to the system. Wealth is given to classed characters above 1st level.

Also, kobolds are CR 1/3.

 

[Anubis]

Upper Krust.

Now let's get back to that *slightly different rule set* I just mentioned to account for negative Challenge Ratings (before Anubis has a synaptic meltdown in his next reply).

Here goes.

CR 0.66(R) = CR 2/3 = EL 0
CR 0.50 = CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 0.25 = CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 0 = CR 0 = EL -3
CR -0.25 = CR -1/4 = EL -4
CR -0.5 = CR -1/2 = EL -5
CR -0.66(R) = CR -1 = EL -6
CR -1 = CR -2 = EL -7
CR -2 = CR -4 = EL -8
CR -3 = CR -3 = EL -9
(etc.)

I'm not sure if CR -0.66(R) is needed. Perhaps you can impose your brand of UK algebra in there. Let me know what you think.

The difference between you and me is that although accuracy between the two proposals is similar, mine is FAR simpler to understand.

 

[Anubis]

CR 2/3 = EL 0 = EL 2/3
CR 1/2 = EL -1 = EL 1/2
CR 1/3 = EL -2 = EL 1/3
CR 1/4 = EL -3 = EL 1/4
CR 1/6 = EL -4 = EL 1/6
CR 1/8 = EL -5 = EL 1/8
CR 1/12 = EL -6 = EL 1/12
CR 1/16 = EL -7 = EL 1/16

You do realize your second column there is utterly pointless, right?

Also, why are you so obsessed with this CR 2/3 nonsense? Are you intentionally trying to make your system MORE difficult to understand? I thought you were trying to make things simpler for people?

Your second column has no point whatsoever. You get to the same end result I do, and your negative EL crap will just confuse people. So I would suggest you not set this in stone, seeing as there is no basis for any of it.

I understand what you're trying to do here, believe me. *I* understand. People going into your system without guidance direct from you, however, will NOT understand.

You're trying to keep the direct CR relationships going. I understand that. I'm simply saying it's pedantic and pointless. ESPECIALLY the stupid negative EL crap. With CR 2/3, how do you get to EL 1? It's IMPOSSIBLE. The whole point of fractions is to make it so you get up to EL 1 and work from there AS PER THE CURRENT RULES. With 2/3, however, your starting point would be EL 2 from three such creatures. Then you have a problem with the "1.5 opponents" thing because you can't 1.5 opponents at EL 2 from three creatures. See the problem here? The whole point is to make EL 1 the common denominator. All creatures at fractions should eventually add up to EL 1. On top of that, dividing EL 1 into so many fragments (quarters) is silly.

The problem is that although the jump from Level 1 to Level 2 is enormous, the divisions of Level 1 and below are almost nonexistent. (i.e. you can't get much weaker than Level 1) The ONLY way I would accept CR 2/3 (grudgingly) is if it simply bumped all the others down but retained the current divisions of the relationship, like so:

CR (rounds down to) 0.5 = CR 2/3 = EL 2/3
CR (rounds down to) 0 = CR 1/2 = EL 1/2
CR (rounds to) -0.5 = CR 1/3 = EL 1/3
CR (rounds to) -1 = CR 1/4 = EL 1/4
CR (rounds to) -1.5 = CR 1/6 = EL 1/6
CR (rounds to) -2 = CR 1/8 = EL 1/8
CR (rounds to) -3 = CR 1/12 = EL 1/12
CR (rounds to) -4 = CR 1/16 = EL 1/16

That's the absolute ONLY way I'd accept this stupid CR 2/3. No passing Go, no quartering EL 1, no nothing!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

If one side is TOTALLY incapable of ANY retaliation, then there should be no XP award whatsoever unless the PCs are the ones to have directly cause the condition wherein their opponents could not retaliate.

...exactly, one side causes such a condition.

The obvious example being all the PCs flying, drop a Tarrasque with missile weaponry then cast a wish. None of the PCs were ever in harms way. Should they therefore be rewarded to the same extent as PCs who slog it out with the Tarrasque!?

Maybe, yes, no, DM's choice? I'm not sure which was why I through this one out to the masses.

Example 1: PCs surprise opponents by making the floor disappear and dumping them into lava to melt. The PCs get XP because they caused the inability to retaliate.

Example 2: PCs enter a chamber where dozens of epic characters are in a form of sleep (think Highlander Endgame's Sanctuary here) and kill them all. NO XP WHATSOEVER.

Yes I see the juxtaposition.

I'm primarily concerned with the former type of example. Though in your first example the opponents had the chance to win initiative and attack the PCs so its not exactly the kind of example I was discussing.

Nothing to do with surprise. Simply that circumstances (either situational or contrived) prevent one side from effectively attacking the other...ie. they don't have any chance whatsoever.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

You do realize your second column there is utterly pointless, right?

Its as pointless as the third.

Also, why are you so obsessed with this CR 2/3 nonsense?

I do love you, I can't deny you make me laugh mate.

Are you intentionally trying to make your system MORE difficult to understand? I thought you were trying to make things simpler for people?

Your second column has no point whatsoever.

I think you already said that above.

You get to the same end result I do, and your negative EL crap will just confuse people. So I would suggest you not set this in stone, seeing as there is no basis for any of it.

Negative EL is incongrous (just like negative CR), but simpler to discern than fractional EL, noticeable given the fact that even you are having difficulty with your much vaunted fractional EL incorporating CR 2/3, which is a necessity.

To me decimal and fractional EL go hand in hand. They should represent exactly the same thing after all. But looking at it, things like multiple opponents are easier to work out using decimal EL. Also given the fact that ELs are relative; fractional EL doesn't gel as well as decimal EL.

I understand what you're trying to do here, believe me. *I* understand.

Theres no pulling the wool over some peoples eyes it seems.

People going into your system without guidance direct from you, however, will NOT understand.

Luckily I'm there to guide them through the text with copious examples.

You're trying to keep the direct CR relationships going. I understand that. I'm simply saying it's pedantic and pointless. ESPECIALLY the stupid negative EL crap. With CR 2/3, how do you get to EL 1? It's IMPOSSIBLE.

The whole point of fractions is to make it so you get up to EL 1 and work from there AS PER THE CURRENT RULES. With 2/3, however, your starting point would be EL 2 from three such creatures. Then you have a problem with the "1.5 opponents" thing because you can't 1.5 opponents at EL 2 from three creatures. See the problem here? The whole point is to make EL 1 the common denominator. All creatures at fractions should eventually add up to EL 1. On top of that, dividing EL 1 into so many fragments (quarters) is silly.

The problem is that although the jump from Level 1 to Level 2 is enormous, the divisions of Level 1 and below are almost nonexistent. (i.e. you can't get much weaker than Level 1) The ONLY way I would accept CR 2/3 (grudgingly) is if it simply bumped all the others down but retained the current divisions of the relationship, like so:

CR (rounds down to) 0.5 = CR 2/3 = EL 2/3
CR (rounds down to) 0 = CR 1/2 = EL 1/2
CR (rounds to) -0.5 = CR 1/3 = EL 1/3
CR (rounds to) -1 = CR 1/4 = EL 1/4
CR (rounds to) -1.5 = CR 1/6 = EL 1/6
CR (rounds to) -2 = CR 1/8 = EL 1/8
CR (rounds to) -3 = CR 1/12 = EL 1/12
CR (rounds to) -4 = CR 1/16 = EL 1/16

That's the absolute ONLY way I'd accept this stupid CR 2/3. No passing Go, no quartering EL 1, no nothing!

What you do or do not accept is of no consequence next to the facts.

Here are the facts:

Increasing EL by +1 is the same as multiplying CR by x1.5; equally, reducing EL by -1 is the same as dividing CR by 2/3.

Either you understand this or you do not.

Its that simple.

 

[Coredump]

Anubis

I should point out now that monsters do not get NPC wealth, so that is not counted. You REALLY need to actually start paying attention to the system. Wealth is given to classed characters above 1st level.

Well, I think I have been "REALLY" paying attention, and I am pretty sure that a Balor is considered a monster, and that it isn't a classed character.
Yet in section 14.0 Wealth, it is given as an example of getting CR +1.8 due do its 'wealth' of a vorpal greatsword.
Now, I have not been "REALLY" paying attention to the errata, so that may have been addressed.



Anyone,
About fractional CR: I am all for continuity and for being a math geek. But how imperative is it that this section is taken with such exacting precision? It seems that luck/party make-up/etc. make for much larger variables at very low levels; thereby lowering the need for precision. (Though accuracy is still helpful)

Plus, the method for 'adding' CR's seems to break down the more creatures you have. So worrying about what EL a group of 64 Kobolds will be doesn't seem to contain much merit.



PS. UK, sorry about the lack of smiley, but I knew you would get it, and the childish part of me was wondering if Anubis would....apparently not.