Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Coredump mate!

Okay, but I don't feel that answered my question. You seem to feel your CR system is better than the Core one.

Indeed.

As an example of the difference, you showed how the Pit Fiend was shown to be rated very differently.

That wasn't the point I was trying to make with that example, I noticed over in the other thread you took that in a different direction to where I was going with it.

While the issue of PC = CR = EL may be a valid concern, that was not the crux of my question.

But its a valid indictment of the official rules.

Why does it matter that WotC says Pit Fiend CR is 20, and you say Pit Fiend CR is 30; since they both mean the SAME EL.
At least in this one case it sounds like you are stating
"WotC has it wrong, they say it is CR 20 and a moderate challenge for a 20th level party, I say it is CR 30 and a moderate challenge for a 20th level party, so my way is better."

How does this demonstrate the superiority of your system, since it came out with the SAME end result?

Pit Fiend CR/EL 20 (WotC); CR 30/EL 20 (my system)
Bone Devil CR/EL 9 (WotC); CR 14/EL 13 (my system)
Barbed Devil CR/EL 10 (WotC); CR 16/EL 17 (my system)
Gauth CR/EL 6 (WotC); CR 9/EL 13 (my system)
Mummy CR/EL 5? (WotC); CR 8/EL 13 (my system)
Mummy Lord CR/EL 11? (WotC); CR 17/EL 17 (my system)

So really the Pit Fiends rating is merely a coincidence.

 

[Anubis]

I wouldn't necessarily say most treasure, certainly not at lower levels. Probably at higher levels and above...

Like I said, 100% perfection on the wealth issue is impossible.

Nothing but love for you mate!

As the cerebral assassin would say: "I am THAT DAMN GOOD!".

I'll sleep better knowing you are not going to kick up another ruckuss.

I only kick up a ruckuss when I need to!

Indeed. However the CR modifier is not derived from the wealth itself, but rather from the typical wealth attributed to a given level.

eg.
1st-level PC Wealth = 100GP = CR +0.2
10th-level PC wealth = 100,000GP = CR +2 (1000 times more than level 1)
20th-level PC wealth = 800,000GP = CR +4 (8 times more than level 10)

Without having an actual wealth table/formula, rating CR by wealth alone is impossible.

Judging my your mind-dizzying explanation of the former, your latter statement sounds quite true hahaha!

Well thats far too much for an NPC. 200,000 would be much more practical.

Ah, we're finally in agreement.

Indeed, upon review the old figure was too low.

Well it is an issue; but fortunately I already have the solution.

As far as I can tell a figure of 0.15/level of NPC wealth is viable...if not pinpoint in accuracy.

Therefore:

PC wealth = +0.2/Level (Level^3 x100 GP)

NPC Wealth = +0.15/Level (Half Level^3 x200 GP)

Um, I don't find this to be accurate. 1/4 the wealth of a PC is worth 3/4 the CR of a PC?

I'd say if you change it at all, change it to +0.05/Level for NPC wealth. Mostly likely, though, the +0.1/Level works. Then again, +0.05/Level is starting to sound mighty fine, and it won't greatly change the CRs . . . How about it?

An alternative method would be (3/4 Level^3 x100 GP) for the NPC. That may actually be easier to implement since it only requires one deviation from the norm.

Don't do that. That's just silly. If you have two formulas, have two formulas. no need to keep one part the same in both, that's simply pedantic. I'd rather have something slightly different yet more accurate and better. Besides, this formula gives you inflated results yet again, giving 168.75% of the wealth the other gives you.

I don't want to put words in Anubis mouth but I think he was over generalising here and you have pegged it exactly.

PCs probably won't start selling NPC equipment until at least mid-levels and I doubt even then it would be anything like half until at least high-levels.

I don't quite agree with you here, especially when there are lots of NPCs with the same equipment, which is common. Common for me at least. I love throwing lots of Warriors and Adepts at my PCs hahaha.

This doesn't even factor in cohorts, so Anubis generalisation is somewhat misleading.

To be honest, I think cohorts and followers should be counted on their own and not be considered part of the leader characters CR/EL. I know that's a major rule change, or at least I think it would be. Nonetheless, these characters need their own ratings and should count as full characters. These dudes are worth far more than a summoned creature.

BY THE WAY, speaking of summoned creatures . . . UK, you might wanna amend the Gate spell when used in your system . . . Actually you should amend it either way, 'cause it's TOTALLY BROKEN. Right now, a Level 26 character can summon and control a HECATONCHEIRES. I don't think I need to explain how silly and broken THAT is. My suggestion would be to make it so you can't control *anything with a CR more than double the caster's CR*.

My character, Thrin, stockpiled magic items for years. Then when he became a god he dished a lot of it out to his more important worshippers. As a result the top people were really tough which furthered the reputation of the Order of Thrinian Knights, who now have the reputation as some of the toughest fighters in the known worlds.

I somehow get the feeling that this is a very poor example for you to use to demonstrate your point.

That answers my question (if indeed this is what Anubis meant.). Thanks.

Yeah, sounds about right, for the most part. Kinda. Hahaha.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

I only kick up a ruckuss when I need to!

...its your judgement on when its needed I pall at.

Judging my your mind-dizzying explanation of the former, your latter statement sounds quite true hahaha!

Just put your trust in Krust.

Ah, we're finally in agreement.

So it would appear.

Um, I don't find this to be accurate. 1/4 the wealth of a PC is worth 3/4 the CR of a PC?

...because they get the same wealth as a PC 3/4 their level.

I'd say if you change it at all, change it to +0.05/Level for NPC wealth. Mostly likely, though, the +0.1/Level works. Then again, +0.05/Level is starting to sound mighty fine, and it won't greatly change the CRs . . . How about it?

PC +0.2
NPC +0.15

Therefore a 20th-level NPC = CR 19

Don't do that. That's just silly. If you have two formulas, have two formulas. no need to keep one part the same in both, that's simply pedantic.
I'd rather have something slightly different yet more accurate and better. Besides, this formula gives you inflated results yet again, giving 168.75% of the wealth the other gives you.

True, the first formula is better, I was just thinking out loud.

I don't quite agree with you here, especially when there are lots of NPCs with the same equipment, which is common. Common for me at least. I love throwing lots of Warriors and Adepts at my PCs hahaha.

Well obviously if you are throwing a heap of NPCs with the same equipment at the PCs...

To be honest, I think cohorts and followers should be counted on their own and not be considered part of the leader characters CR/EL.

When were they ever not?

I know that's a major rule change, or at least I think it would be.

News to me. I always rated them as extra characters.

BY THE WAY, speaking of summoned creatures . . . UK, you might wanna amend the Gate spell when used in your system . . . Actually you should amend it either way, 'cause it's TOTALLY BROKEN. Right now, a Level 26 character can summon and control a HECATONCHEIRES. I don't think I need to explain how silly and broken THAT is. My suggestion would be to make it so you can't control *anything with a CR more than double the caster's CR*.

Double caster level as CR sounds decent.

I somehow get the feeling that this is a very poor example for you to use to demonstrate your point.

 

[Anubis]

...because they get the same wealth as a PC 3/4 their level.

PC +0.2
NPC +0.15

Oh, so you meant the 0.15/NPC Level would be for the new proposed formula and NOT the original one you came up with that matched my results. I understand that, and those numbers do match pretty perfect. The wealth may be a bit much, though.

True, the first formula is better, I was just thinking out loud.

Well if you use the first formula, your +0.15/NPC Level doesn't work. Check it out . . .

With the old (better) formula, you get 200,000 gp wealth for a Level 20 NPC. A Level 20 PC gets 800,000. Therefore, since the NPC always have a quarter the wealth of a PC, then the NPC wealth rating should be a quarter of the PC wealth rating. +0.2/PC Level and +0.05/NPC Level.

Well obviously if you are throwing a heap of NPCs with the same equipment at the PCs...

Most leaders arm their armies with the same equipment.

When were they ever not?

You implies that cohorts and the such would be a problem because they are included in CR. I simply stated that they should be seperate.

Double caster level as CR sounds decent.

In agreement yet again! I think we're in the home stretch here now!

How'd you like the numbers in that e-mail? If you would playtest them in a game, I do believe those numbers would bear out nicely. It still keeps goblins at CR 1/2 and makes four of them EL 3, but I think that's accurate anyway.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

Where goblins and every other creature between CR 0 and CR 1 are concerned, the fractional solution seems to favor increments of either 1/4 or 1/3.

Upper Krust.

I know we both dislike the messy 1/3 fractional solution, so what about this...

CR 1 = EL 1
CR 3/4 = EL 0
CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 1/8 or 1/16 = EL -3...

That way CR 0.3 creatures (like warrior goblins with Size modifiers calculated separately from their racial package) round down to CR 1/4 and rate EL 2 for a group of 4 such humanoids.

Now whether you rate NPC wealth at +0.15 or +0.05, this final value for goblins in particular will still round down to CR 1/4 before adjusting EL for numbers (as above).

These numbers would award a party of 4 PCs 112.5 XP each for decimating 4 goblins warriors. Not an ideal value for goblins (still inflated by 150% by my estimation) but a good compromise nonetheless.

Now the weight falls cleaning on your shoulders Upper Krust. Have you made any progress determining which racial CR features should and should not be calculated separately?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Anubis mate!

Oh, so you meant the 0.15/NPC Level would be for the new proposed formula and NOT the original one you came up with that matched my results. I understand that, and those numbers do match pretty perfect. The wealth may be a bit much, though.

No I didn't mean that. I meant use the old formula.

Half Level^3 x 200GP

Well if you use the first formula, your +0.15/NPC Level doesn't work. Check it out . . .

I just did, it should be +0.126...which doesn't exactly roll of the tongue.

We could probably get away with making it +0.125 I think.

With the old (better) formula, you get 200,000 gp wealth for a Level 20 NPC. A Level 20 PC gets 800,000. Therefore, since the NPC always have a quarter the wealth of a PC, then the NPC wealth rating should be a quarter of the PC wealth rating. +0.2/PC Level and +0.05/NPC Level.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and no.

This is one of those situations that, while simple, is an absolute bugger to properly explain to someone unless they have taken an advanced course in krustanomics.

Listen up...

A 20th-level PC gets 800,000 GP = +4 CR
A 20th-level NPC gets 200,000 GP = +2.52 CR (or as I menationed above possibly +2.5 for simplicity)
A 12th-level PC gets 172,800 GP = +2.4 CR
A 13th-level PC gets 219,700 GP = +2.6 CR

A 10th-level PC gets 100,000 GP = CR +2
A 10th-level NPC gets 25,000 GP = CR +1.26 (or +1.25)
A 6th-level PC gets 21,600 GP = CR +1.2
A 7th-level PC gets 34,300 GP = CR +1.4

We do not measure the AMOUNT of GP they get, forget about how much more wealth one has above the other - you can't rate it like that!

We measure the LEVEL at which they get a certain amount!

A 20th-level PC gets 8000 times more wealth than a 1st-level PC. Its impossible to rate wealth as a CR factor in and of its own amount. So instead we rate wealth based on the level at which they should receive that wealth.

Most leaders arm their armies with the same equipment.

When do 'armies' ever get maical equipment. Maybe the leaders of mid-level and above.

You implies that cohorts and the such would be a problem because they are included in CR. I simply stated that they should be seperate.

Of course they have a seperate CR - everthing does. But they would still be factored into the (P)EL as you would multiple party members.

In agreement yet again! I think we're in the home stretch here now!

*touches wood*

How'd you like the numbers in that e-mail? If you would playtest them in a game, I do believe those numbers would bear out nicely. It still keeps goblins at CR 1/2 and makes four of them EL 3, but I think that's accurate anyway.

I need to study this facet in more detail before making any judgement.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Where goblins and every other creature between CR 0 and CR 1 are concerned, the fractional solution seems to favor increments of either 1/4 or 1/3.

Possibly.

Upper Krust.

I know we both dislike the messy 1/3 fractional solution, so what about this...

CR 1 = EL 1
CR 3/4 = EL 0
CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 1/8 or 1/16 = EL -3...

Firstly there is no CR 3/4. Its CR 2/3.

Secondly, maybe I am just missing the obvious here (?), but how are we any further along with the above 'insights'?

The problem has nothing to do with the relationship between fractional CRs and ELs. We already have that deteremined.

The problem is how do we get the decimal results of my CR system to coincide with fractional CRs (and therefore ELs) since we can't just take the decimal and turn it into a fraction because the CR system takes scores below zero!

That way CR 0.3 creatures (like warrior goblins with Size modifiers calculated separately from their racial package) round down to CR 1/4 and rate EL 2 for a group of 4 such humanoids.

Now whether you rate NPC wealth at +0.15 or +0.05, this final value for goblins in particular will still round down to CR 1/4 before adjusting EL for numbers (as above).

These numbers would award a party of 4 PCs 112.5 XP each for decimating 4 goblins warriors. Not an ideal value for goblins (still inflated by 150% by my estimation) but a good compromise nonetheless.

I'm unclear as to how exactly you are marrying decimal CRs and fractional CRs/ELs.

Now the weight falls cleaning on your shoulders Upper Krust.

Naturally.

Have you made any progress determining which racial CR features should and should not be calculated separately?

I'll have this all wrapped up this weekend.

...hopefully.

 

[Sonofapreacherman]

The problem is how do we get the decimal results of my CR system to coincide with fractional CRs (and therefore ELs) since we can't just take the decimal and turn it into a fraction because the CR system takes scores below zero!

...

I'm unclear as to how exactly you are marrying decimal CRs and fractional CRs/ELs.

Directly. In the most simple and straightforward way imaginable.

When you translate a CR 0.3 creature into a fractional CR, you get a CR 3/10 creature. Now because you always round CR down, rounding down fractional Challenge Ratings is no different. The two closest fractional CR increments are 1/2 and 1/4. A CR 3/10 creatures falls directly between those two ranges, and thus rounds down to CR 1/4.

Adjusting CR for opponent numbers works on the same premise, except that each increment of fractional Challenge Rating (2/3, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc.) counts as +1. Which is why a four CR 1/4 creatures add up to EL 2.

Easier than eating pie.

 

[Anubis]

Hey Anubis mate!



No I didn't mean that. I meant use the old formula.

Half Level^3 x 200GP



I just did, it should be +0.126...which doesn't exactly roll of the tongue.

We could probably get away with making it +0.125 I think.



No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no and no.

This is one of those situations that, while simple, is an absolute bugger to properly explain to someone unless they have taken an advanced course in krustanomics.

Listen up...

A 20th-level PC gets 800,000 GP = +4 CR
A 20th-level NPC gets 200,000 GP = +2.52 CR (or as I menationed above possibly +2.5 for simplicity)
A 12th-level PC gets 172,800 GP = +2.4 CR
A 13th-level PC gets 219,700 GP = +2.6 CR

A 10th-level PC gets 100,000 GP = CR +2
A 10th-level NPC gets 25,000 GP = CR +1.26 (or +1.25)
A 6th-level PC gets 21,600 GP = CR +1.2
A 7th-level PC gets 34,300 GP = CR +1.4

We do not measure the AMOUNT of GP they get, forget about how much more wealth one has above the other - you can't rate it like that!

We measure the LEVEL at which they get a certain amount!

A 20th-level PC gets 8000 times more wealth than a 1st-level PC. Its impossible to rate wealth as a CR factor in and of its own amount. So instead we rate wealth based on the level at which they should receive that wealth.



When do 'armies' ever get maical equipment. Maybe the leaders of mid-level and above.



Of course they have a seperate CR - everthing does. But they would still be factored into the (P)EL as you would multiple party members.



*touches wood*



I need to study this facet in more detail before making any judgement.

Hmmm . . . I don't think I really like your little premise here. I think the best way is to compare the wealth directly by comparing the PC level to the NPC level PER LEVEL. Compare Level 20 only to Level 20, etc. I certainly understand what you're saying now, though.

IF you do it this way, though, I'd like something more exact. So go with your new proposed formula.

(3/4Level ^3)*100

Then make it 0.15/NPC Level for wealth. That way you are EXACT. You're the one with a problem with more wealth for NPCs, not me. I don't mind having NPCs with more wealth, it makes things more interesting. Inflated treasure, but the DM could handle that.

 

[Anubis]

Where goblins and every other creature between CR 0 and CR 1 are concerned, the fractional solution seems to favor increments of either 1/4 or 1/3.

The ideal solution favors 1/2 increments, actually.

Upper Krust.

I know we both dislike the messy 1/3 fractional solution, so what about this...

CR 1 = EL 1
CR 3/4 = EL 0
CR 1/2 = EL -1
CR 1/4 = EL -2
CR 1/8 or 1/16 = EL -3...

That way CR 0.3 creatures (like warrior goblins with Size modifiers calculated separately from their racial package) round down to CR 1/4 and rate EL 2 for a group of 4 such humanoids.

If you do this, then halflings and gnomes become ECL -1 PC races. You can't count size for goblins while not counting it for gnomes and halflings. Check it out, when UK rated the gnome and halfling, when he came up with that "don't count under 0.5", he was saying to count ALL the factors on the creature save for the class and if THAT is under 0.5, then you don't count ANY of it. When you count everything but the class for the goblin, you get 0.2, so you therefore would count NOTHING it has, including the size. That why UK says you only count the class when dealing with ECL 0 races.

You have to count it for all and make gnomes and halflings ECL -1 or not count size at all even for goblins. Or do you honestly think that goblins are weaker than gnomes and halflings? They aren't. All three races are pretty equal in power.

Now whether you rate NPC wealth at +0.15 or +0.05, this final value for goblins in particular will still round down to CR 1/4 before adjusting EL for numbers (as above).

These numbers would award a party of 4 PCs 112.5 XP each for decimating 4 goblins warriors. Not an ideal value for goblins (still inflated by 150% by my estimation) but a good compromise nonetheless.

Four goblins are worth much more than that considering the PCs could aren't gonna have such an easy fight.

Now the weight falls cleaning on your shoulders Upper Krust. Have you made any progress determining which racial CR features should and should not be calculated separately?

Well if you count size, gnomes and halflings become ECL -1, so I would say no to this. Count size for all or count size for none. Can't have it both ways.

Directly. In the most simple and straightforward way imaginable.

When you translate a CR 0.3 creature into a fractional CR, you get a CR 3/10 creature. Now because you always round CR down, rounding down fractional Challenge Ratings is no different. The two closest fractional CR increments are 1/2 and 1/4. A CR 3/10 creatures falls directly between those two ranges, and thus rounds down to CR 1/4.

Adjusting CR for opponent numbers works on the same premise, except that each increment of fractional Challenge Rating (2/3, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc.) counts as +1. Which is why a four CR 1/4 creatures add up to EL 2.

Easier than eating pie.

And now I must thank you for eliminating yourself from the debate in this way. It's been shown time and again that doing this is IMPOSSIBLE because it doesn't account for negative CRs (which happen to take up a majority of Level 1 monsters, by the way). You would have 16 kobolds being an EL 1 encounter!