Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

[Anubis]

Coredump, what UK is saying about wealth is that if there is a significant keyed magical item (like the Astral Deva's mace or the Balor's sword), you find the value and apply that level of wealth to the creature, BUT that has nothing to do with giving the creature equipment.

Goblins and the like have no such equipment, and thus are not counted as having any because "basic" isn't even Level 1 equipment.

Sonofapreacherman, the goblin is either 0.8 is you factor in all racial modifiers OR 0.6 is you factor in none. (I have no clue where you get your silly 0.3 from.) If you factor in size seperate, you MUST do the same for gnomes and halflings, which would make a Level 1 gnome or halfling PC CR 0.5 instead of CR 1.

Allow me to spell it out for you.

Goblin

Small Size: CR -0.5

Speed +10: CR +0.1
Darkvision: CR +0.2
Skills +10: CR +0.2
1 Bonus Feat: CR +0.2

Level 1 Warrior: CR +0.6


So again, how do you come up with your +0.3 nonsense? If you're saying not to count the Ride +6 and Mounted Combat, then you are ignoring the basis of the systen which states flat out to factor in ALL things, even if unused, because the POTENTIAL for using those things is there. Ya' know, kinda like DR 5/+1 on an epic monster; it won't do a damn thing for it because epic characters have magical weapons, but it COULD if a character found himself or herself without a good weapon all of a sudden. Just the same, the goblin may not use the Ride and Mounted Combat often, but that goblin could potentially mount and become a nuisanse, and so you must count these abilities. UK has stated this on MANY occasions about counting ALL things even if unused or unuseful.

As such, the goblin is either 0.2 or 0.6; if 0.2, then the goblin is EL 1/2 and four goblins is EL 3; if 0.6, then the goblins is EL 2/3 and four goblins is EL 4. No matter how you slice it, the four goblins are gonna be at least EL 3 unless you either totally change goblins or foolishly quarter EL 1 (which also goofs up other CRs badly).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy UK,

Hiya mate!

Hmmmm...... Maybe I don't understand what you mean by 'wealth' then.

Anything not already given in the description.

To me it is an indication of their available equipment, since a 6th lvl fighter with a +5 sword, is more of a threat than with a +1 sword.

Already taken care of:

6th-level Fighter = CR 4.8

with +1 sword (needs at least 3rd-level equipment) = +0.6
with +5 sword (needs at least 13th-level equipment) = +2.6

Therefore:

6th-level Fighter with +1 sword = CR 5.4 (5)
6th-level Fighter with +5 sword = CR 7.4 (7)

I did not think it was meant to indicate how much jewelry and gems were laying around.

Nope.

I did/do not see much of a difference if a 20th lvl character has a +5 vorpal sword, or if a Balor has it. Their 'wealth' makes them more of a challenge.

Of course not. The effects are the same, as rated in my system.

I never really considered the Treasure Tables at all, as far as "You find 10,000 PP and 15,000 GP" meaning much in regards to the CR/EL. (Unless, of course, the Table indicates magic that the creature could be using....)

Exactly.

My statement was because it was mentioned that wealth was not used for a Kobold; but a Kobold with a sword and leather armour, is more of a threat than without.

Equivalent to 1st-level NPC equipment or possibly less.

Well, I will withhold final opinion until I see what you have, but my initial response is 'Absolutely'. I think guidelines of a range of adjustments would be well warrented. Along with suggestions as how to apply the range. ie. not just say '-4 to -6 EL' but rather XX may lead to a -4 adjustment, YY may lead to -5, and ZZ should indicate a -6.
I think it is totally feasible to have an encounter warrent a -8 EL, and they DM should feel the flexibility to do so.

Indeed. I think the modifier should probably tie in with how much resources are expended.

But also consider a 'moderate' encounter from a ledge, where it is literally shooting fish in a barrel. yes, it may cost them some arrows, but it may not be worth 1/4 the XP.

Probably cost them a few greater magic weapon spells too.

 

[Coredump]

Okay UK, good to hear from you again,

Almost all of what you wrote is what I expected and believed. Just a couple of things.

Anything not already given in the description.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Let me outline what I think of as potential problems (for me anyway)

Start with two Monstrous Humanoids, both with 2 HD. (meaning two different species/races; not just two of the same race.)

In the 'description' it is mentioned that one race uses a chain shirt, and longsword, and the other race uses padded and a club. If you do not take into account 'wealth' that is in the description, these two will have the same CR/EL. But they are apparently of different difficulties.

Then consider the Balor again, the sword is most definitely in the description, yet you counted it into the CR.


Now, onto the Kobold.
If you have a 3rd level character, he is assumed to be 'naked' as far as equipment/wealth. Then you add in the .2/.? for the various and sundry equipement possessed by the PC/NPC.
For some monsters (ala Balor) you add in equipment/wealth they possess.
So, why not add in the equipment/wealth for other monsters, ie the kobold. True, they would not have a full 'level' of wealth, but they also don't have a full 'level' of HD and you manage that well enough.

.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi all!

Oh, I have finished (a while ago) going over the appendix; but was waiting for the resolution of the fractional/situational discussions. I didn't want to have too many things going at once.

Well I may as well type this up now, although I was planning on testing it a bit more...

Anyway.

Racial Mods

Dwarf Racial Mods: CR +0.4
Elf Racial Mods: CR +0.3
Human Racial Mods: CR +0.3
Half Orc Racial Mods: CR +/-0.0
Gnome Racial Mods: CR -0.2
Halfling Racial Mods: CR -0.2

Goblin Racial Mods: CR +0.1 (without speed increase*)
Hobgoblin Racial Mods: CR +0.3
Kobold Racial Mods: CR -0.2 (without speed increase*)
Orc Racial Mods: CR +0.1

*I don't see how they can justify the 30 ft. speed for these creatures.

Humanoid Hit Dice: CR +0.55
Half Humanoid HD (Kobold): CR +0.275

Warrior NPC Level: CR +0.6

PC/NPC Level: CR +0.8

Level of NPC equipment: CR +0.125

Fractional CR

0.75 = CR 2/3
0.5 = CR 1/2
0.25 = CR 1/3
0 = CR 1/4
-0.5 = CR 1/6
-1 = CR 1/8
-2 = CR 1/12
-3 = CR 1/16

If you need to work out each individual fraction simply divide each number by four.

eg.
-0.25 = CR 1/5
-0.75 = CR 1/7
-2.5 = CR 1/14

Any comments?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Okay UK, good to hear from you again,

I'm like the proverbial bad penny...

Almost all of what you wrote is what I expected and believed. Just a couple of things.

Fire away.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Let me outline what I think of as potential problems (for me anyway)

Start with two Monstrous Humanoids, both with 2 HD. (meaning two different species/races; not just two of the same race.)

Base: 2 Monstrous Humanoid HD = CR +1.2

In the 'description' it is mentioned that one race uses a chain shirt, and longsword,

(Items: 115 GP) Requires 2nd-level NPC equipment (200 GP) = CR +0.25

and the other race uses padded and a club.

(Items: 5 GP) Less than 1st-Level NPC equipment (25 GP) = CR +0

If you do not take into account 'wealth' that is in the description, these two will have the same CR/EL. But they are apparently of different difficulties.

CR 1.45 = EL 2
CR 1.2 = EL 1

Then consider the Balor again, the sword is most definitely in the description, yet you counted it into the CR.

...because its in the description. Its intrinsic.

Now, onto the Kobold.

If you have a 3rd level character, he is assumed to be 'naked' as far as equipment/wealth. Then you add in the .2/.? for the various and sundry equipement possessed by the PC/NPC.

A 3rd-level character = CR +2.4 (with no equipment)
With 3rd-level NPC character wealth = CR +2.775 (2.4 + 0.375)
With 3rd-level PC character wealth = CR +3 (2.4 + 0.6)

For some monsters (ala Balor) you add in equipment/wealth they possess.

So, why not add in the equipment/wealth for other monsters, ie the kobold.

I do.

True, they would not have a full 'level' of wealth, but they also don't have a full 'level' of HD and you manage that well enough.

Kobold:
Racial Mods -0.2
Half HD +0.275
1st-level PC equipment necessary (with Light X-Bow) +0.2

Therefore CR = 0.275 (0.25) = CR 1/3

 

[Anubis]

I have several comments.

First, about the wealth thing. UK, the way you're chaning the NPC wealth thing makes the whole system about a hundred times more complicated. Counting "basic" equipment (anything that isn't magical) as wealth is just plain stupid. As such, things like standard goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs should not have any wealth counted. The balor's sword is counted because it's a major magical item.

Second, as to justifying the 30 ft. base speeds for goblins and kobolds . . . It's a RACIAL ABILITY. There are many things that get bonuses such as this. These two races are just "faster" than standard races. That's all the justification that's needed, and I'm not at all sure why you would suggest otherwise.

Third, you REALLY need to specify whether to count all those small racial abilities in that list you presented or not. Do we tack that into CR or not? I'm guessing that the whole "don't count racial abilities unless they add up to more than 0.5" statement still applies here . . .

Fourth, I warned you I could kill any quartering of CR 1 you gave me and I'm gonna do it right now. The PROBLEM isn't within CR 1, but rather how fast the fractions shrink under 0.

I will get right to two examples that instantly break your system. Observe the Small Zombie and the Fire Beetle.

Small Zombie: CR -2.300
Giant Fire Beetle: CR -0.900

These round to CR -2 for the zombie and CR -1 for the fire beetle, assuming you took my advice about rounding down when the CR is positive but rounding to the nearest when the CR is negative. (If not, the zombie is actually CR -3.)

Here are the numbers as they come out using my proposal and using your proposal:

Monster ~ Anubis ~ UK

Small Zombie ~ EL 1/8 ~ EL 1/12
Fire Beetle ~ EL 1/4 ~ EL 1/8

You say that a Level 1 party can take on 12 small zombies, while I think they could only handle 8. Any DM will tell you that the 8 is far more accurate. Yet you think they could take on half again as many small zombies AS A 20% ENCOUNTER. Ludicrous.

For the fire beetles, I say 4 and you say 8. Again, any DM would tell you that for a 20% encounter, a moderate encounter which PCs would have little to no difficulty winning, the 4 is more accurate than the 8. You think the party could take on TWICE AS MANY FIRE BEETLES . . . AS A 20% ENCOUNTER!

Anyway, pretty much all the weakest skeletons and zombies and vermin and animals work out this way, but then again, they're pretty much the only thing that get to negative CR in the first place!

There you have you proof that quartering CR 1 breaks the system.

 

[Coredump]

Counting "basic" equipment (anything that isn't magical) as wealth is just plain stupid. As such, things like standard goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs should not have any wealth counted. The balor's sword is counted because it's a major magical item.

But it is all relative. It is a big change between a Balor with the badassed sword, and without.
Likewise, it is a big difference to have a gnoll with a chain shirt and longsword, or just padded and a club. But you seem to want to treat them the same.
In fact, from what you are saying, there is no CR/EL difference between a fighter in padded armour with a dagger, and one in full plate with a greatsword. Much of the 'wealth' of a low-medium lvl character would be non-magical.

There you have you proof that quartering CR 1 breaks the system.

First, that is not 'proof', that is an opinion. Second, you can't just claim that DM's will agree with you; I would venture to guess UK is also a DM...
Third, I have found this system to be inaccurate for low levels anyway.

And last, it is your assertion that 4 first level characters can take on 8 small skeletons, and then repeat that process 3 more times?
I think both of your systems are too harsh. 8 skeletons will probably lose to 4 characters, but should do a number on their 'resources'. Heck, if the cleric misses the turn, they may even lose the mage.

I do find it interesting that (IMO) <1CR creatures seem to be underestimated, and >1 (but low )CR creatures seem to be overestimated. But more on that later.

.

 

[Anubis]

But it is all relative. It is a big change between a Balor with the badassed sword, and without.

And as such, the balor's sword IS counted. Like I said, magical is counted, non-magical should NOT be counted.

Likewise, it is a big difference to have a gnoll with a chain shirt and longsword, or just padded and a club. But you seem to want to treat them the same.
In fact, from what you are saying, there is no CR/EL difference between a fighter in padded armour with a dagger, and one in full plate with a greatsword. Much of the 'wealth' of a low-medium lvl character would be non-magical.

I think that they would all rate the same regardless of the amount of non-magical equipment, not because they are the same power, but because different such ratings are pedantic and inaccurate. The cost of items does NOT directly increase with the power of the items. Here are examples of what I'm saying:

Greatsword: 50
Two-Bladed Sword: 100

Longsword: 15
Rapier: 20

Morningstar: 8
Heavy Mace: 12

Large Wooden Shield: 7
Buckler: 15

Scale Mail: 50
Chain Shirt: 100

See what I mean? The greatsword is obviously better than the two-bladed sword, the longsword is better than the rapier (usually), the morningstar has identical power to the heavy mace, and large wooden shield is better than the buckler, and the scale mail and the chain shirt are pretty much the same. Yet all the "weaker" items can cost double the better items! I might make an exception for heavy armor, but that would be the extent of it.

Also, how do you account for wealth that can't be used? Unlike powers that can't be used, items that can't be used have no potential for use, like a fighter with a wand or a wizard with an exotic weapon and no proficiency.

First, that is not 'proof', that is an opinion. Second, you can't just claim that DM's will agree with you; I would venture to guess UK is also a DM...
Third, I have found this system to be inaccurate for low levels anyway.

His way, yes, but not the way I proposed. I have playtested my way, and it works beautifully.

Also, I believe this is proof that the quartering is broken. I don't know ANY DMs out there who would think that 12 small zombies is a normal encounter for a Level 1 party.

And last, it is your assertion that 4 first level characters can take on 8 small skeletons, and then repeat that process 3 more times?
I think both of your systems are too harsh. 8 skeletons will probably lose to 4 characters, but should do a number on their 'resources'. Heck, if the cleric misses the turn, they may even lose the mage.

Actually I was talking about zombies, which are weaker than skeletons. By my proposals, a normal encounter for a Level 1 party would be 3 skeletons.

I do find it interesting that (IMO) <1CR creatures seem to be underestimated, and >1 (but low )CR creatures seem to be overestimated. But more on that later.

That's why I changed things at low levels. Believe me, though, the more powerful things are not overestimated, they're just usually not played correctly. (Dragons and the number one victim of incorrect DMing. DMs SHOULD use metagame knowledge when running dragons.)

 

[Anubis]

Okay, after many hours of study, I not only pinpointed the problems with UK's proposal, I also found a steady formula to determine fractional CRs!

Here it goes . . . We know CR 1 = EL 1. Well, I propose that we set half that (CR 0.5) to equal the EL 2/3. Starting from that point, I made a variation of the original formula as the basis for mine. After 1, the formula that UK uses goes CR*2 = EL+4. This obviously don't work below 1, however, because then you could never take into account negative CRs. Instead, you have to reverse the formula! It goes like so, *for CRs below 1*:

CR-2 = EL/4

Bam! With that, you get the following:

CR - EL
===================
-3 = 1/16
-2.5 = 1/12
-2 = 1/8
-1.5 = 1/6
-1 = 1/4
-0.5 = 1/3
0 = 1/2
0.5 = 2/3
1 = 1

UK's proposal has no mathematical basis, whereas my proposal is based off of the very formula that works his entire system! I think this is certain proof that I have the right idea here.

Now as for the following proposal:

CR - EL
===================
1 = 1
1.25 = 2
1.50 = 3
1.75 = 4
2 = 5
2.50 = 6
3 = 7
3.50 = 8
4 = 9

The base problem with this is in pathetic creatures with unbalanced powers. In this, the tiny viper works out to be EL 3, ridiculous by any DM's imagination considering the whopping 1 hp. Also, gnolls work out to be EL 2, which although I find that to be slightly stupid, it's not quite as unbalanced as the timy viper. On that note, there are only three solutions:

1) Reduce the CR value of poison.
2) Forget about diving up ELs 1-4.
3) Have a poison parameter that limits the poison power of smaller creatures, which kills the realism of the viper.

Take your pick, 'cause it currently don't work at all. Anyway, that's my report. Those using the system are urged to use THIS formula and not UK's, as UK's will cause problems with the fractional monsters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I have several comments.

Thought you might.

First, about the wealth thing. UK, the way you're chaning the NPC wealth thing makes the whole system about a hundred times more complicated. Counting "basic" equipment (anything that isn't magical) as wealth is just plain stupid. As such, things like standard goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, and orcs should not have any wealth counted. The balor's sword is counted because it's a major magical item.

No, a Balors Sword is counted because of how much its worth. There is a reason why non magical items cost money you know - because they are still useful!

Low Level PCs probably won't have any magic items but their wealth is still factored.

Second, as to justifying the 30 ft. base speeds for goblins and kobolds . . . It's a RACIAL ABILITY. There are many things that get bonuses such as this. These two races are just "faster" than standard races. That's all the justification that's needed, and I'm not at all sure why you would suggest otherwise.

Then factor that in, its simply an additional +0.1 to CR.

Personally I think that could be a 'typo' since theres no real justification for it.

Third, you REALLY need to specify whether to count all those small racial abilities in that list you presented or not. Do we tack that into CR or not? I'm guessing that the whole "don't count racial abilities unless they add up to more than 0.5" statement still applies here . . .

Count everything from now on.

Fourth, I warned you I could kill any quartering of CR 1 you gave me and I'm gonna do it right now.

I posted the stuff up without fully testing it so there could be incongruities, but lets see the evidence...

The PROBLEM isn't within CR 1, but rather how fast the fractions shrink under 0.

Well I'm glad you are onboard with all positive numbers. Lets see what we can do with the negative ones...

I will get right to two examples that instantly break your system. Observe the Small Zombie and the Fire Beetle.

...its always possible one of the factors could be incorrect...?

Small Zombie: CR -2.300
Giant Fire Beetle: CR -0.900

These round to CR -2 for the zombie and CR -1 for the fire beetle, assuming you took my advice about rounding down when the CR is positive but rounding to the nearest when the CR is negative. (If not, the zombie is actually CR -3.)

Okay lets see:

Small Zombie:
Small = -0.5
Undead (Mindless) = -1.5
1 HD = +0.5
+10ft speed = +0.1
+1 Natural Armour = +0.1
Toughness Feat = +0.2
Partial Actions = -0.25

Total -1.35 (rounds to -1.5) = CR 1/10

Giant Fire Beetle:
Small = -0.5
Vermin = -1.5
1 HD = +0.5
+10 ft. speed = +0.1
+5 Natural Armour = +0.5

Total -0.9 (rounds to -1) = CR 1/8

Here are the numbers as they come out using my proposal and using your proposal:

Monster ~ Anubis ~ UK

Small Zombie ~ EL 1/8 ~ EL 1/12
Fire Beetle ~ EL 1/4 ~ EL 1/8

You say that a Level 1 party can take on 12 small zombies, while I think they could only handle 8. Any DM will tell you that the 8 is far more accurate. Yet you think they could take on half again as many small zombies AS A 20% ENCOUNTER. Ludicrous.

For the fire beetles, I say 4 and you say 8. Again, any DM would tell you that for a 20% encounter, a moderate encounter which PCs would have little to no difficulty winning, the 4 is more accurate than the 8. You think the party could take on TWICE AS MANY FIRE BEETLES . . . AS A 20% ENCOUNTER!

Anyway, pretty much all the weakest skeletons and zombies and vermin and animals work out this way, but then again, they're pretty much the only thing that get to negative CR in the first place!

There you have you proof that quartering CR 1 breaks the system.

Alternatively I could be overcooking the 'Mindless' trait.

I mean non-strength and non-dexterity have palpable repercussions in a fight, but does the mindless trait have the same bearing on a fight?

Perhaps it should be -0.5 instead of -1.5?

What do you think? Do you see the above problem with creatures other than (mindless) Undead and Vermin?

One sore point with that idea could be the skeleton, I'll have to check that.