Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Kerrick]

But I have to balance flavour with ease of use. I don't want to make things obscure for their own sake - especially if they are really more or less extensions to current abilities.

Yeah, I agree that some feats lend themselves to epic progression (Two-Weapon Fighting, for example), but it seems like they went a little overboard.

Okay - what are these targeted at? Feats? Divine Abilities? Class Features?

Monster abilities.

Originally Posted by Kerrick
Flay skin - the creature can flay the skin from a living being. (0.1)

Wouldn't that be a Craft Skill?

Mm... not sure. Here's the text for it (note that a flayed one is a species of vampire):

Flay Skin (Ex): A flayed one can peel the skin from an unconscious living or dead Medium victim in a number of rounds equal to (10-the flayed one’s centuries of age). For example, a 500-year-old flayed one could flay the skin from a victim in 5 rounds. The time is doubled for each size category above Medium, and decreased by one round for each size smaller (to a minimum of one full round).

Originally Posted by Kerrick
Wear skin - it can wear the skin and adopt the original owner's form (0.2).

Definately supernatural. Likely parallels alternate form in terms of power.

Also by owners form I presume you mean as per Polymorth?

Not quite polymorph; it's more like alter self - the flayed one (the creature in question) can only wear the skin of a creature of one size category larger or smaller, and humanoid in shape.

Originally Posted by Kerrick
hypnotize - I rated this about half domination; I couldn't do it like the spell, because it's for a template.

Not sure I understand?

Sorry - I meant that I rated hypnotize (gaze attack, as the spell) at half what domination is rated (that is, 0.25 instead of 0.5).

Originally Posted by Kerrick
magic regeneration - can expend one level of stored spell energy to heal 5 hp. (this one's about the same as regen, neh?)

Isn't there a Forgotten Realms spell that lets you do something like this?
[/Quote]

I'm not sure.. can't use that stuff anyway, since this is in a product.

Originally Posted by Kerrick
nature's vigil - at will, the creature can make a Wilderness Lore check to determine if anything unusual has happened within one mile (travelers, new predators, etc.) (0.75, I think - I did this one awhile back)

Is this an extension of the Wilderness Lore boundaries (I don't have my PHB handy).

More like an alteration of commune with nature. And that reminds me - I need to change that to Survival

After looking over those when I posted them, I realized how many were simply mild alterations of spells or existing abilities, and that it wouldn't be as hard as I thought to extrapolate values for them. And here I was making guesstimates

 

[codewarriorpro]

CR for WotC Deities?

Hi UK,

I was wondering if you had applied your system to the categories of Deities created by WotC. Please don't bother to do a specific breakdown step by step. Just the final number would be fine if you have one.

Hero: CR+50?
Demi: CR+60?
Lesser:CR+70?
Intermidate:CR+80?
Greater:CR+90?

How do they compare (CR wise) to the templates that you have created for your immortals?


How do you treat Dragon Gods? If you apply your system to the Dragon Gods in Deities&Demigods you see that the dragons have a significant higher CR than other deities of the same divinity level. At least that what I came up with at a glance.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kreynolds mate!

Excuse me? Did I catch you on a bad day or something?

Apologies if that reads more terse than it was supposed to.

I'm not making a big deal out of this, rather I don't think you're getting the picture here.

I suppose anything is possible. I must admit I find your confusion confusing.

What feats? Book name, page number, name of feat.

For Monsters (spell-like abilities):

Monster Manual 3.5; Chapter Six; Pages 303-304; Feats:

1. Empower Spell-like Ability
2. Quicken Spell-like Ability

These feats are also in Savage Species.

For Characters (spells):

Epic Level Handbook; Chapter One; Pages 50-51; Feats:

1. Automatic Quicken Spell
2. Automatic Silent Spell
3. Automatic Still Spell

Deities & Demigods; Chapter Two; Page 36; Salient Divine Ability:

1. Automatic Metamagic.

The feats you are likely referring to have undergone changes in later books.

Possibly.

I want to know which feats exactly you mean, because if you aren't aware of the altered feats, I'm wasting my time going back and forth with you like this.

I totally do not comprehend what you are trying to do here, that isn't already outlined in the published rules.

So you propose to calculate the CR modifier on a daily basis? That doesn't make much sense.

How would it?

Even though that suggestion was for spell-like abilities (rather than spells - wherein you use feat equivalents) it would only be calculated once.

Also, for the cheap seats, spell-like abilities have nothing to do with this in any way.

Both spell-like abilities or spells are already catered for within the current rules - typically under feats.

Similar to what I'm doing, but not really of any help.

Surely it is of help unless you are contesting the feats validity (which I would understand since they are not balanced).

Personally I would say the ability rates equal to one additional feat per automatic spell slot.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi kerrick mate!

Yeah, I agree that some feats lend themselves to epic progression (Two-Weapon Fighting, for example), but it seems like they went a little overboard.

I continue feats/gifts with a simple prefix change when the feat or gift has previously been discontinued (ie. doesn't stack); but I want to add something in the same 'spirit'.

If a feat (for example) already stacks I don't add to the same mechanic.

eg. Great Strength (epic feat) stacks.

I have a Divine Gift called Multi-faceted which lets the being take five feats instead of a Divine Gift. So there is no need for me to have an extraoplated Strength Divine Gift that does the same thing.

However I do have a Cosmic Gift called Legendary Strength which doubles your strength. So the mechanic is different.

Monster abilities.

Okay.

Mm... not sure. Here's the text for it (note that a flayed one is a species of vampire):

Flay Skin (Ex): A flayed one can peel the skin from an unconscious living or dead Medium victim in a number of rounds equal to (10-the flayed one’s centuries of age). For example, a 500-year-old flayed one could flay the skin from a victim in 5 rounds. The time is doubled for each size category above Medium, and decreased by one round for each size smaller (to a minimum of one full round).

In the ELH; Chapter One; Page 40:

Craft: Quick Creation +10 or more to the DC.

However it doesn't actually mention how much quicker each +10 to the DC makes it.

Presumably its a simple division?

I would make this a Supernatural Ability - but determine the speed within the skill mechanics as above.

Not quite polymorph; it's more like alter self - the flayed one (the creature in question) can only wear the skin of a creature of one size category larger or smaller, and humanoid in shape.

So it doesn't even gain Extraordinary Abilities, just the 'look'?

Sorry - I meant that I rated hypnotize (gaze attack, as the spell) at half what domination is rated (that is, 0.25 instead of 0.5).

Oh, okay.

I'm not sure.. can't use that stuff anyway, since this is in a product.

True, but it would be useful for determining balance.

More like an alteration of commune with nature. And that reminds me - I need to change that to Survival

After looking over those when I posted them, I realized how many were simply mild alterations of spells or existing abilities, and that it wouldn't be as hard as I thought to extrapolate values for them. And here I was making guesstimates

A case of not seeing the wood for the trees it would seem.

Something I have been guilty of myself on many occasions.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK,

Hiya codewarriorpro mate!

I was wondering if you had applied your system to the categories of Deities created by WotC. Please don't bother to do a specific breakdown step by step. Just the final number would be fine if you have one.

I must admit I havent done this with any recent version of my CR/EL document - since my own breakdown differs significantly (while at the same time trying to maintain the same measure of power).

Hero: CR+50?
Demi: CR+60?
Lesser:CR+70?
Intermidate:CR+80?
Greater:CR+90?

I vaguely recollect that it was roughly like:

Quasi: CR +20
Demi: CR +35
Lesser:CR +50
Intermidate: CR +65
Greater: CR +80

However I would have to go over it all with v4 to be sure.

How do they compare (CR wise) to the templates that you have created for your immortals?

Similar; there is more method behind my madness though.

How do you treat Dragon Gods?

As Dragons with the Divinity Template.

I do have a revised Dragon Age Table in the IH:Bestiary which can be used to outline both epic dragon progression and Divinity by longevity.

If you apply your system to the Dragon Gods in Deities&Demigods you see that the dragons have a significant higher CR than other deities of the same divinity level. At least that what I came up with at a glance.

Absolutely. There are two reasons for this:

1. They have superior Ability Scores than other gods.
2. Dragons are far more powerful than the Monster Manuals attest; so WotC comparisons between Dragon HD and Deity Outsider HD + Class Levels are not a fair comparison.

eg. If we remove Divinity altogether and compare Boccob to Bahamut there is probably a difference of at least +20 CR in favour of Bahamuts stats.

 

[codewarriorpro]

Relative Power of Deities

Hi UK,

I was wondering if you have a fixed power(CR) range for each category level of deity. WotC doesn't seem to have one because all of their deities have 60-70 Levels/HD no matter its status as Hero,Demi,Lesser..etc. So for example could a hero deity be as powerful (Same CR) as an intermidate deity? The hero deity would need to have more classes/hd to be able to match the intermidate deity's immortal template CR boost.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi UK,

Hi codewarriorpro mate!

I was wondering if you have a fixed power(CR) range for each category level of deity.

Yes and no.

I have a suggested measure of power; but if DMs want to undercut that or transcend it thats okay by me.

WotC doesn't seem to have one because all of their deities have 60-70 Levels/HD no matter its status as Hero,Demi,Lesser..etc.

Yes; it all seemed a bit 'conveyor belt' from WotC - how handy it was for virtually all the gods to have 40 levels and 20 HD.

I think in part they forced themselves into that by not using the epic rules as standard.

So for example could a hero deity be as powerful (Same CR) as an intermidate deity?

Absolutely. My own character (Thrin) is a Lesser God; but as powerful as an Intermediate God.

The hero deity would need to have more classes/hd to be able to match the intermidate deity's immortal template CR boost.

Exactly. I estimate a 115th-level Hero-deity will equal a typical Intermediate Deity.

 

[Kerrick]

Sorry.. missed your reply up there.

I would make this a Supernatural Ability - but determine the speed within the skill mechanics as above.

Originally Posted by Kerrick
Not quite polymorph; it's more like alter self - the flayed one (the creature in question) can only wear the skin of a creature of one size category larger or smaller, and humanoid in shape.

So it doesn't even gain Extraordinary Abilities, just the 'look'?

Yeah... I hadn't even thought about that... I suppose it would make sense for it to gain Ex abilities.

 

[kreynolds]

WotC doesn't seem to have one because all of their deities have 60-70 Levels/HD no matter its status as Hero,Demi,Lesser..etc.

The only thing I noticed about the FR deities from WotC is that all original deities have 20 outsider HD. Ascended deities don't, but they typically have the class levels to make up for that.

 

[Kavon]

*bump*

Hey U_K, how's everything coming allong with this now?