Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

Ah, I didn't know you'd already tried that.

Thats okay.

Yes it does. It takes a bit getting used to at first, but after a dozen monsters I could glance at the ability and tally up the score.

I presume you mean v3 or before? The new version is better...naturally.

Things that weren't covered in the document were a little harder to gauge, but I think I got them fairly accurate...

Like what!? Feedback dude!

They said themselves that they never did any really serious playtesting of higher levels (read: 15th and above).

I could easily believe that.

One thing that I find silly was their claim that saves become too unbalanced the higher up you go. The difference between saves at 60th level (as in the example they give) is only 12! If you factor in stat scores, magic items, feats, etc., that gap will likely be much less, depending on the class.

I think you could have probably got away without adjusting the BAB or Save progression for epic play.

But I am content to follow it at this stage.

Now, don't get me wrong - I like high-level play. I don't like WotC's treatment of it, which was incomplete at best. They seriously dropped the ball with the ELH, but that's a topic that's been hashed out over and over, so I'll let it go.

What bits didn't you like?

 

[kreynolds]

Aren't these in essence 'feats' you are outlining then.

Hardly. A feat doesn't let you apply metamagic effects to a spell for free as many times a day as you want. Please read more closely.

As a result a flat +0.2 should suffice, shouldn't it?

If they were feats, yeah, but since they're not...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Hardly. A feat doesn't let you apply metamagic effects to a spell for free as many times a day as you want. Please read more closely.

If they were feats, yeah, but since they're not...

I don't see why you are making a big deal out of this. It seems perfectly straightforward to me:

Option #1: Use the feats at the back of the Monster Manual as written.

Option #2: Make sure the creature has the appropriate metamagic feat and add the spell slot modifier to every spell-like ability affected.

Option #3: Use the epic feats for Automatic Metamagic (although these are not exactly properly balanced).

 

[Kavon]

Hey Kerrick

Greetings Kavon, and welcome to the discussion.

Thanks

Yes it does. It takes a bit getting used to at first, but after a dozen monsters I could glance at the ability and tally up the score. Things that weren't covered in the document were a little harder to gauge, but I think I got them fairly accurate...

Can't wait till I'm done with going through it all, and putting it to use

Hey U_K

I still don't know what WotC were thinking with that book?

Yeah.. I tried to make some deities, but I was trying to figure out how powerful I wanted to make them most of the time (it didn't feel right), as well as putting all the skills and feats in x_x

Now that I think about it.. How have you done the skills? It's allot of work if you have to backtrack it all, with very high level characters.

Well I am sure you will find something useful in the Immortals Handbook.

The Dungeon Master.

Alright I pretty much came to the same conclusion
(Kavon is the highest 'deity' type thing in my world, and is also me myself, but with some modifications to my name*)

*which is Koen. Try and find how I came to the name Kavon from that (it surprised me how much trouble it was for some people).

 

[Kerrick]

What bits didn't you like?

I'll answer this one first, because it's a little shorter: the spell system (goes without saying at this point), the magic items (I mean come on - I wanted to see some NEW stuff, not simply extensions of existing powers, like energy warding and epic protection; FOUR of the wondrous items weren't adptations of lesser items.); most of the feats (epic this, epic that - it seems to be a recurring theme in that book); the core classes (I'd have though they were grant new abilities or something every so many levels, not just "bonus feat" and extension of existing abilities); and the city of Union seems more like an OGC version of Sigil than anything.

Like what!? Feedback dude!

Well, I didn't want to bother you by constantly asking what thus-and-such woiuld cost, but if you really want to know...

Flay skin - the creature can flay the skin from a living being. (0.1)
Wear skin - it can wear the skin and adopt the original owner's form (0.2).
magic regeneration - can expend one level of stored spell energy to heal 5 hp. (this one's about the same as regen, neh?)
hypnotize - I rated this about half domination; I couldn't do it like the spell, because it's for a template.
control shadows - can make them gather around it, granting a +10 bonus to Hide checks. (0.2)
shadow blend - can disappear into the shadows, gaining 50% concealment (it was 9/10 in 3E - stupid rules changes ) (0.2).
nature's vigil - at will, the creature can make a Wilderness Lore check to determine if anything unusual has happened within one mile (travelers, new predators, etc.) (0.75, I think - I did this one awhile back)

This is just a sampling of some of the more unusual things I have.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K

Hey Kavon mate!

Yeah.. I tried to make some deities, but I was trying to figure out how powerful I wanted to make them most of the time (it didn't feel right), as well as putting all the skills and feats in x_x

It is a lot easier with the IH.

Now that I think about it.. How have you done the skills? It's allot of work if you have to backtrack it all, with very high level characters.

Well I didn't want to destroy the dynamic of the skill system itself - but I do have some Divine Gifts that streamline progression.

Feat Slots can be stacked into Divine Gifts as well.

Alright I pretty much came to the same conclusion
(Kavon is the highest 'deity' type thing in my world, and is also me myself, but with some modifications to my name*)

*which is Koen.

Nice to meet you Koen!

Try and find how I came to the name Kavon from that (it surprised me how much trouble it was for some people).

Nothing to do with Kerr AVON from Blakes Seven is it?

 

[Kavon]

Hey U_K

It is a lot easier with the IH.

That's very good to hear

Well I didn't want to destroy the dynamic of the skill system itself - but I do have some Divine Gifts that streamline progression.

Hmm.. Sounds interesting

Feat Slots can be stacked into Divine Gifts as well.

Ooh, sounds very good

Nice to meet you Koen!

(I'm from the Netherlands in case I forgot to mention it in my profile thingy )

Nothing to do with Kerr AVON from Blakes Seven is it?

Nope

(hints: try reversing some things, removing a letter, and putting it back later, changing languages with words, etc )

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Kerrick mate!

I'll answer this one first, because it's a little shorter: the spell system (goes without saying at this point),

Okay I have that sorted in the IH.

the magic items (I mean come on - I wanted to see some NEW stuff, not simply extensions of existing powers, like energy warding and epic protection; FOUR of the wondrous items weren't adptations of lesser items.);

Sorted.

most of the feats (epic this, epic that - it seems to be a recurring theme in that book);

Well I have tried to stay away from 'mere' descriptor updates wherever possible - though I must admit I do have about 15 Gifts with the Divine prefix* and about 10 with the Superior prefix - although remember that is out of 130 Divine Gifts.

*Although some of these are not actually updates: eg. Divine Presence.

But I have to balance flavour with ease of use. I don't want to make things obscure for their own sake - especially if they are really more or less extensions to current abilities.

the core classes (I'd have though they were grant new abilities or something every so many levels, not just "bonus feat" and extension of existing abilities);

An unfortunate necessity when you want to scale things infinitely.

and the city of Union seems more like an OGC version of Sigil than anything.

It all seemed a bit epic level for the sake of being in the epic level handbook.

Well, I didn't want to bother you by constantly asking what thus-and-such woiuld cost, but if you really want to know...

Okay - what are these targeted at? Feats? Divine Abilities? Class Features?

Flay skin - the creature can flay the skin from a living being. (0.1)

Wouldn't that be a Craft Skill?

Wear skin - it can wear the skin and adopt the original owner's form (0.2).

Definately supernatural. Likely parallels alternate form in terms of power.

Also by owners form I presume you mean as per Polymorth?

magic regeneration - can expend one level of stored spell energy to heal 5 hp. (this one's about the same as regen, neh?)

Isn't there a Forgotten Realms spell that lets you do something like this?

hypnotize - I rated this about half domination; I couldn't do it like the spell, because it's for a template.

Not sure I understand?

control shadows - can make them gather around it, granting a +10 bonus to Hide checks. (0.2)

Indeed.

shadow blend - can disappear into the shadows, gaining 50% concealment (it was 9/10 in 3E - stupid rules changes ) (0.2).

Maybe +0.4. I'll need to check it.

nature's vigil - at will, the creature can make a Wilderness Lore check to determine if anything unusual has happened within one mile (travelers, new predators, etc.) (0.75, I think - I did this one awhile back)

Is this an extension of the Wilderness Lore boundaries (I don't have my PHB handy).

This is just a sampling of some of the more unusual things I have.

Interesting stuff.

 

[poilbrun]

...and the city of Union seems more like an OGC version of Sigil than anything.

Except that nothing in the IH is OGC, else the IH could be published today!

 

[kreynolds]

I don't see why you are making a big deal out of this.

Excuse me? Did I catch you on a bad day or something? I'm not making a big deal out of this, rather I don't think you're getting the picture here.

Option #1: Use the feats at the back of the Monster Manual as written.

What feats? Book name, page number, name of feat. The feats you are likely referring to have undergone changes in later books. I want to know which feats exactly you mean, because if you aren't aware of the altered feats, I'm wasting my time going back and forth with you like this.

Option #2: Make sure the creature has the appropriate metamagic feat and add the spell slot modifier to every spell-like ability affected.

So you propose to calculate the CR modifier on a daily basis? That doesn't make much sense. Also, for the cheap seats, spell-like abilities have nothing to do with this in any way.

Option #3: Use the epic feats for Automatic Metamagic (although these are not exactly properly balanced).

Similar to what I'm doing, but not really of any help.