Revised DR

[Illuminae]

/me takes stick

/me slaps hong a few times

/me smile

Illuminae "that was fun" Ooi

 

[shilsen]

That is not by any chance what will happen.

You (all who believe the golf bag theory) are not considering the second aspect that changed: DR values.

With the new DR system, even if you don´t have the specific weapon, YOU CAN still beat them creatures.

And this ISN´T TRUE with the CURRENT rules.

With DRs like 30/whatever then you are required to have the beating stick of eternal doom.

Well, I guess having only 1 kind of weapon to affect is better for those of you who like random monster tables as opposed to a well created enviroment for the game, where it is possible to study it and and learn about its critters.

So, ranting that you will NEED a weapon with new rules is as broken as the current ranger.

With new rules, with DR caping at 15 or so, YOU WILL have freedom to choose weapons and still have a chance.


And I am sorry if my way of stress words sounded non-polite, that isnt the goal. I am just sleepy. And lazy

Good point. This is another reason I believe I will like the change in the DR system. Either way, I'm not going to bother getting excited (unlike a lot of people in this thread and others on this board ) until I actually see what the new rules are in their entirety.

 

[Shalewind]

Rant / People seem to be upset because this unbalances things? If this is the case, was balance produced by the DR of baddies ALWAYS being defeated? What is the point of DR then, to keep low level guys from killing a certain baddie? Well that's kinda useless and very metagamed. Under this system, so what if DR happens... It will just make a fight a little longer. DR values have even been reduced.

Just how many monsters with DR are there? Well, without Demons, Dragons, Celestials, Golems, and Devils, you've got a handful in the MM, say 15? Half of them I'd say I'd never seen. I think the aforementioned critters SHOULD be tougher to kill and require extra effort (weapons materials preparation) to kill. And really, if the Pit Fiend's formidable 25/+2 is going to 15, imagine what is happening to those 20/+1 10/+1 and 5/+1s. Honestly I don't see this as a major issue. If a category of creatures above is a primary threat in your campaign world, you'll be equiped to handle them. If ALL of them are a constant threat, well I think you have some high-magic stuff flying around, and if that is the case, you'll have the holy-silver-myrhtil blend sword needed to kill stuff. /Rant

 

[Grog]

That is not by any chance what will happen.

You (all who believe the golf bag theory) are not considering the second aspect that changed: DR values.

Even with lower DR values, it's still going to be a huge problem, and probably an insurmountable one for many types of characters. Even if we're talking about a big, beefy greatsword fighter who can punch through the DR with ease, he's still losing 10-15 points of damage off each hit.

At high levels, when you're getting four attacks (which is when you're most likely to run into creatures with DR), that amounts to 40-60 points less damage per round. Losing 60 points of damage per round will seriously impact a character's usefulness. And it has the potential to turn an encounter from a decent challenge into a situation that could easily cause one or more character deaths.

So now we're back to the golf bag of weaponry.

And for dual wielders, it's even worse. They'll be losing 60-90 points of damage per round. Even a 20th level fighter can't lose that much damage potential without his usefulness to the party seriously suffering.

The only way for fighters to stay viable at high levels will be to have at least one weapon of each material type.

And, even if they do, how likely is it that every single one will be enchanted? That would cost enormous amounts of money that most characters just won't have. So when the fighter has to sheathe his main weapon with the high enchantment bouns and all the extra powers and pull out his coldiron sword, his effectiveness drops then, too.

So what will end up happening, unless WotC has some stunningly brilliant way of implementing this that I haven't taken into account, is that the high-level game, which is already heavily weighted in favor of spellcasters, will tip even more in that direction. After all, this change won't impact spellcasters one bit.

So if I'm playing 3.5E, I'll just have to make sure I get a surestriking weapon as quickly as possible. And if the DM doesn't allow surestriking, it's a spellcaster for me, thank you.

 

[Petrosian]

[/B][/QUOTE]

Rant / People seem to be upset because this unbalances things? If this is the case, was balance produced by the DR of baddies ALWAYS being defeated?

Hint: The bad guys are supposed to lose.
Hint: balance concerns are not usually about PCs beating the bad guys, because the PCs are supposed to beat the bad guys.
Hint: if your main character get killed off in chapter-3, thats a mighty short book.

What is the point of DR then, to keep low level guys from killing a certain baddie?`

I think the purpose of Dr is to provide a tougher challenge without raising Hp beyond a preconcieved level. HP derive directly from HD but many other things do as well. So, adding in DR might mean you extend the beastie's toughness without increasing his saves and to hit and so on.

In 3.5e the purpose seems to be to encourage "porcupine" fighters who are armed with a silver axe, a golden mace, a wooden spear, a cold iron flail, a holysilver dagger, a blessed sap, a coppertop glaive, a bronze ranseur, and his buddy the sorcerer with the GMW for the needed weapon of the moment.

Well that's kinda useless and very metagamed. Under this system, so what if DR happens... It will just make a fight a little longer. DR values have even been reduced.

Ok, it really sepends on whether you are playing a fantasy character or a DND character. In most fantasy novels i have read and fantasy movies i have seen the hero or heroes each carry one weapons, maybe two at most.

The new DR thingy will make it sensible to carry a multitude of weapons of different shapes and materials and rely on magic spells to boost the weapon de jour. this is done because of the game mechanic... not because it makes sense for our stalwart dwarven hero to walk around like the porcupine fighter of olden days.

of course, in 3e with the availability of hewaerd haversacks and such, he wont look like a porcupine.

Just how many monsters with DR are there?

irrelevent. how many will be thrown at the party is what matters more.

What matters even more than that is the fact that the party, not knowing how many or what they are, will prepare for this by trying to cover all the bases. Even if the never encounter a werewolf, they will be stocking up on silver weapons... just in case.

Well, without Demons, Dragons, Celestials, Golems, and Devils, you've got a handful in the MM, say 15? Half of them I'd say I'd never seen. I think the aforementioned critters SHOULD be tougher to kill and require extra effort (weapons materials preparation) to kill. And really, if the Pit Fiend's formidable 25/+2 is going to 15, imagine what is happening to those 20/+1 10/+1 and 5/+1s. Honestly I don't see this as a major issue. If a category of creatures above is a primary threat in your campaign world, you'll be equiped to handle them. If ALL of them are a constant threat, well I think you have some high-magic stuff flying around, and if that is the case, you'll have the holy-silver-myrhtil blend sword needed to kill stuff. /Rant

By 5th level or so it should be no great shakes of effort or imagination or ingenuity for a fighter to have his haversack and his collection of odd materials weapons and a variety of shapes.

We aren't talking rocket science or high end tactics here.

more like accounting or inventory control.

i dont see the benefits of this new Dr doing anything good. i definitely see bad sides.

 

[Shalewind]

I hate to pick at this. I'm aware the badguys are suppose to lose. All I am saying is that for the bad guys to lose, DR doesn't NEED to be penetrated by EVERY character attacking with a weapon, every combat. This is my core point.

Yes, if every enemy fought had a DR that was unbeatable, the fighters are going to get hosed. But that isn't what is going to happen.

In 3.5e the purpose seems to be to encourage "porcupine" fighters who are armed with a silver axe, a golden mace, a wooden spear, a cold iron flail, a holysilver dagger, a blessed sap, a coppertop glaive, a bronze ranseur, and his buddy the sorcerer with the GMW for the needed weapon of the moment.

That is what I find totally ridiculous. There is no way there is going to be nearly that big an array of monster that are going to be seen by ANY party at any level. Do you really think WoTC would introduce eight to twelve new materials that would varry across every DR creature? No way. You are going to see things like silver spread out across a huge array of these baddies.

WoTC didn't say they nixed the +1 requirement either. +1 might still be a very legitmate requirement for some DRs. I can also see having all Demons or all Devils weak against ONE type of material. In short. I don't think this materials thing is going to impact that many encounters.

and rely on magic spells to boost the weapon de jour.

What do you think GMW is doing now?

Ok, it really sepends on whether you are playing a fantasy character or a DND character. In most fantasy novels i have read and fantasy movies i have seen the hero or heroes each carry one weapons, maybe two at most.

Yes. I like this image too. This is also a fairly realistic style of play. D&D is not. D&D is not LOTR. D&D is D&D. I hate the fact that magic items make the character and not the character. But that is the way things are in D&D. Materials are just going to add another flavor aspect (that can be used to implement more of the above realism if done right).

What matters even more than that is the fact that the party, not knowing how many or what they are, will prepare for this by trying to cover all the bases. Even if the never encounter a werewolf, they will be stocking up on silver weapons... just in case.

Metagaming of this kind is just silly. It assumes the characters know everything about everything.

People in this thread are worried about Fighters being out done by the wizards... People in the Haste thread are worried that the fighter is way too damage dealing and that he will easily out do the wizards... Hmmm, as you say it doesn't take "rocket science" to figure out these tactics. The system is being revised. You assume everything is out of balance, I say look at the big picture. Which we can't. Because we haven't seen everything. But even from these two vauge peices of information it seems they are keeping things balanced as is: take from spellcasters, take from fighters. Feel free to debate the effects of DR vs Haste and spell caster ruling... It won't matter, because something could enter the equation and totally change that argument.

Have faith people and paitence.

 

[Rill]

So what will end up happening, unless WotC has some stunningly brilliant way of implementing this that I haven't taken into account, is that the high-level game, which is already heavily weighted in favor of spellcasters, will tip even more in that direction. After all, this change won't impact spellcasters one bit.

So if I'm playing 3.5E, I'll just have to make sure I get a surestriking weapon as quickly as possible. And if the DM doesn't allow surestriking, it's a spellcaster for me, thank you.

There is another entire thread decrying the haste change and that casters will now be useless in comparison to fighting types because they can only deal half their current maximum damage per round. Surely at least one argument (and in my opinion both) will fall flat.

I still am amazed that the fighters already using multiple weapons argue that they can't deal enough damage, and the fighters dealing massive amounts of damage argue that they will have to carry multiple weapons. You two factions should be tossing solutions to each other's problems back and forth like crazy!

I guess some fighters will have to learn a new trick or two. Much like how other classes develop strategies for dealing with different foes. When an opponent has elemental resistance, the evoker isn't decrying the game mechanics. When the rogue comes up against undead, does he rail against the broken rules that make him less effective? When your enchanter faces a golem, does he throw bricks at the WotC HQ in protest of a broken system? (Ok, some might, but there are much better reasons than that!) The game is all about overcoming challenges, and the changes seem to be a nice way for DMs to add flavorful combats.

There are legitimate concerns about the DR changes, and legitimate questions as to whether the change was a necessary step. I just don't see how anyone can say that the changes as presented thus far create such game breaking imbalances. *shrug*

- Rill

 

[Shalewind]

There is another entire thread decrying the haste change and that casters will now be useless in comparison to fighting types because they can only deal half their current maximum damage per round. Surely at least one argument (and in my opinion both) will fall flat.

Praise Heaven! Someone is with me on this.

There are legitimate concerns about the DR changes, and legitimate questions as to whether the change was a necessary step. I just don't see how anyone can say that the changes as presented thus far create such game breaking imbalances. *shrug*

Agreed!

 

[Illuminae]

Even with lower DR values, it's still going to be a huge problem, and probably an insurmountable one for many types of characters. Even if we're talking about a big, beefy greatsword fighter who can punch through the DR with ease, he's still losing 10-15 points of damage off each hit.

Hey, but that IS the point why THERE IS DR in the first place!!!

 

[Hypersmurf]

There is no way for a Wizard to perfectly penetrate spell resistance.

Sure there is... crossbows work great

-Hyp.