Revised DR

[kigmatzomat]

people talk about 'research' like it is a forgone conclusion of a scientific community.
How well will the fighter be able to gather info?

I think he'll do it using something called "role playing" or he'll rely on the other members of the party (bards & wizards) to give him advice.


Lets think of current... did all fighters carrya slashing *and* bludgening weapon. Plus a melee *and* a range weapon? Did they always carry a fly potion? and water breathing? And a silver weapon? etc. etc.
These are all things that will make the fighter more effective in certain situations; so does every fighter carry them all now?

Dunno about all fighters. My fighters tended to be modeled after medieval knights; primary sword, shield w/spikes, bludgeoning weapon, couple of daggers, bow, spare sword in pack, with lance, greatsword & crossbow on my horse.

I count 7 weapons carried on adventures (1 of which requires time to draw) and another 3 kept on my mount. In towns it gets cut down to a couple of daggers and the main sword or two if I'm a TWFer for 3-4 weapons. That doesn't even bring out the option of arrows.

I can see having several "special" material weapons on hand at relatively low cost. Will they automatically know to use them? No. Should the GM provide RP information for them to get a clue? Yes.

"Your sword strikes the skeleton but only carves out a few bone slivers. The cleric caves in his skeleton's chest." "Your sword strikes deep into the furry form but the gash closes almost as fast as you can pull your blade free. He's bleeding, but more angry than injured."


Second, is it worth it to carry all those weapons? How often will they be needed? how does that compare to the hassle of carrying them?

I don't see a hassle, really. I can't talk about the value since I don't know how many beasties will acquire special materials vs. +1-type DR. Sure, 30% of the creatures use DR but I doubt half of them will use special materials and a proper selection of weapons will cover the blunt/slashing/piercing factor.

Sure, it adds complexity, but I don't see it being that much of an issue.

 

[Felon]

Have you even been reading the thread?
Go back and try again.
Look for all the various explanations of why it will NOT necessarily reduce damage.

Well, I've sifted through this thread, although I'm not reading every darn post. Sorry. I just don't have five hours or so to devote to reading posts from people making a mountain of a molehill. It's a new twist that will keep warriors from tearing through opponents that are supposed to by tough as hell. To be honest, nothing I've seen has been terribly eye-opening; the concept's not that high-brow. I knew before this thread started that damage reduction will only sometimes actually result in damage being reduced. If there's some major potential problem with damage reduction, why don't you go ahead and spell it out for the folks just tuning in?

If you're going to act superior and condescending, it'd be a good idea to know what you're talking about first.

Lol, I was just being a tad facetious. I see all these people expressing the opinion "These new DR rules are stupid! I'm going to have to carry around a golfbag fulll of weapons to make sure that I can bypass every opponent's DR!", rather than realize that the whole point of revised rules is that you're not supposed to bypass every opponent's DR.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Lol, I was just being a tad facetious. I see all these people expressing the opinion "These new DR rules are stupid! I'm going to have to carry around a golfclub fulll of weapons to make sure that I can bypass every opponent's DR!", rather than realize that the whole point of revised rules is that you're not supposed to bypass every opponent's DR.

If your not supposed to bypass them then why have a bypass at all. Just go with 5/- and be done with it. If there is a bypass why should some complain if people use it. Those who like the new rules seem to be complaining about those of us who follow them to thier logical conclusion.

 

[Felon]

If your not supposed to bypass them then why have a bypass at all. Just go with 5/- and be done with it.

Oh, I suspect that will be the case with some opponents, oozes and golems being the most likely candidates for all-purpose DR. But to answer your question, I suspect the intention is to emphasize the special qualities of different types of weapons, the same way energy resistance makes it relevant that a fireball and a cone of cold do different types of damage.

If there is a bypass why should some complain if people use it. Those who like the new rules seem to be complaining about those of us who follow them to thier logical conclusion.

Go ahead and use the bypass. Carry around the golfbag instead of just one uber-weapon. Works for me. But I'll bet there's some monster out there with an unusual bypass that you're not prepared for.

 

[Felon]

By the way, has anyone here ever read Karl Edward Wagner's Dark Crusade? The whole golfbag o'weapons issue reminds me of Kane's plans to assassinate Orted Ak-Ceddi, a seemingly invulnerable avatar of a shadow god. Since Orted never rode at the front of his army, Kane reasoned that he must be vulnerable to something. So he had a team of assassins set to creep into Orted's bed chamber with wooden stakes, stone-headed hammers, silver blades, and other implements of death, just to figure out which one would do the trick. Ah, if only more warriors had the spirit of experimentation, instead of expecting everything to be made easy for them...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Go ahead and use the bypass. Carry around the golfbag instead of just one uber-weapon. Works for me. But I'll bet there's some monster out there with an unusual bypass that you're not prepared for.

Well, the point is that a true golf-bagger will do everything in his power to learn what special materials might be required for anything he's likely to encounter. There might indeed be a unique monster out there vulnerable only to obsidian spears, that none of the sages the golf-bagger consulted knew about, and when he meets it, he won't have an obsidian spear in his golf-bag.

But if he doesn't know about it, nobody will! And so we're back to "What's the point of giving it a bypass mechanic if nobody in the world knows what it is?" - it may as well be 15/-, since nobody will ever use an obsidian spear on it.

-Hyp.

 

[Felon]

Well, the point is that a true golf-bagger will do everything in his power to learn what special materials might be required for anything he's likely to encounter.

OK, characters doing research instead of just barreling into every baddie. So far so good...

There might indeed be a unique monster out there vulnerable only to obsidian spears, that none of the sages the golf-bagger consulted knew about, and when he meets it, he won't have an obsidian spear in his golf-bag.

WHAT? Who doesn't carry on obsidian nine-iron? Inconceivable!

Look, if we're talking about a monster that's virtually unassailable without a specific weapon, then we're either talking about a plot device that the players have to figure out, or one heckuva crappy adventure, right?

But if he doesn't know about it, nobody will! And so we're back to "What's the point of giving it a bypass mechanic if nobody in the world knows what it is?" - it may as well be 15/-, since nobody will ever use an obsidian spear on it.

OK, some monsters may well have 15/- DR. They'll be a pain to fight, but hardly invincible. If the monster has a bypass, then at the very least you're no worse off than before. There really is no big deal here, IMHO.

 

[Technik4]

Brown Jerkin: First of all, your %s are way off, as I learned when doing a little research for myself. See my list of monsters with DR. Factor in that some will retain a special material of "magic weapon". You are left with a handful of creatures, and a few templates, mostly thematically linked.

So why does not being able to penetrate DR the first time you encoutner something NOT equal it might as well just be DR X/-. Because, after that first encounter Im sure if the party lives (the EL is determined on whether or not the party has learned of the enemy's weakness yet) they will do everything in their power to FIND OUT what it is. And on subsequent encounters, they will be better prepared. However, its fun having that FIRST encounter where nobody knows how to kill it, it seems invulnerable, and the party may just end up fleeing.

So enough with "why have a bypass at all?". Its clearly to make for an interesting first battle with your first lyncanthrope or what have you. Afterwards, you may realize something you did not during the first encounter, which makes subsequent encounters less difficult.

Hyp: Just because noone alive knows of the special obsidian spear doesnt mean its stupid. If a module or a campaign is created with the intent that characters find out that it does have a vulnerability to the obsidian spear, then the party may well have to overcome a more challenging opponent (if they did not learn) or with the knowledge they found out, they will have a more evenly matched fight.

And just to throw another foil out to you golfbaggers, Im sure a half-way intelligent monster who sees a normal or mwk weapon which CAN hurt him wont have any qualms about sundering it at the first opportunity. Another point for the roleplayers who choose their primary weapon to be silver (and thus have a decent plus) and rely on maybe only one backup melee weapon.

Technik

 

[WizarDru]

Why have it at all? I thought we'd already established that Flavor was a significant reason. Take a look at the Coin Golems from Piratecat's story hour. The Defenders had no idea how to harm them, but they figured it out, and then the monsters were easily defeated. That makes for a fun game, and a good story. If the story had been, either we can hit a +4 or we can't, it's neither exciting nor interesting.

As it stands right now, DR doesn't really meet that requirement, and IMHO doesn't really fulfill it's design intent.

 

[Storminator]

I love how you can walk away from a thread like this for 200 posts and come back right where you left off.

Its like watching baseball on TV. Fall asleep in the 3rd inning, wake up in the 7th, and its still 4 to 3.

PS