Revised DR

[Shalewind]

I'd hate to leave with bad blood on the floor...

Petrosian and Brown: I apologize for some of my comments, some were not needed and some were out of line. (I in no way meant to imply putting words in your mouth). And yes, some arguments can be made with the information at hand. I no longer wish to debate it on that level though without seeing the whole. Others seem to be far better equipped at making their points here. So again, my apology for any insults or "high horse" remarks I might have made. Good luck in the debate.

::humbly backs out::

 

[Simulacrum]

Ok I give the whole DR thing another shot:
I repeat I'm DMin for 13 years (I play much longer but 13 years as a DM). I dont complain I usualy have good players.
Still there were alot of silly things after a while (usualy when party reaches 10th level).
It always struck me somwhere near the stomach when after describing the filthy demon pack that attacked the party everyone was just checking their inventory list to make sure they didnt forget to pack in the +3 weapons and checked their stats and HP and went like: ok were ready...bring them beasties on!
??? What a letdown...they knew from the beginning they would make it...why? Because they knew they were prepared, they knew they could beat them!
Thus reducing the whole MM just to comparing your stats to the Monster stat making sure you had that +3 weapon ready and possibly even starting to calculate exactly how much damage you will dish out per round and how long it will take you to beat it to mush.....wow what a challenge, how imaginative and fun, ...frankly those are the worst moments in the game.Ya, the

DR changes does make something wonderful happen-->
From now on it wont be like: Sheesh cmon I'm beating that up in 3 rounds!....what was that monster again?

Now it will be more like: Yeah that beasty rules, just look at it's awesome defenses, this thing is quite a challenge, I wonder if I can ever beat that thing...Impressive.
Talk will be what the coolest monster and greatest challenge is in there in the new book...knowing that makes me all warm and fuzzy inside....that is the game I love!


copy pasted out of another thread

 

[Technik4]

Golfbag Failure

The golfbag might be a good way to go for a paranoid low level character who rolled high on their gold roll. But when it gets to the point where the character says "I can either afford to raise my sword from mwk to +1, or I can buy a few more mwk weapons..just in case".

As far as metagaming out of existence? No. As a DM I would simply try to explain to the player that I try to keep a reign on how much magic each character has, so that it does not become a monty haul campaign. As such, you will need to make choices. If you want to spend 2,000 gold on HHH instead of a +1 weapon, thats fine. But what if some of the monsters have DR 5/+1 (as Im reasonably sure they will)? The point is a fighter will NOT be able to cover every DR base in the MM (I fervently hope not at least, maybe at higher levels if they sacrifice a powerful weapon for many weak ones, which of course is a trade-off, an option).

If it is a DR 15 monster the characters will be high enough level to either cast a spell to improve the fighter, pool their resources to buy something new for the fighter, the fighter can maybe forge his own special weapons (!!!) and have the wizard enchant them. Theres a lot of possibilities, and it all just opens up the fighting classes that much more. People can compare their fighters at all levels, and not only will the race and feats be different, but what type of greatsword they chose, or what mods they chose to get on it as they progressed.

If you track PC wealth, the golfbag should not be an issue. Do I use my +2 greatsword of wounding, my +1 Cold Iron Maul, or should I go rooting through the "bag" will not be an issue, imo. Youll have 2 primary weapons and a ranged weapon, not a bag.

Technik

 

[Simulacrum]

word!

 

[Spatzimaus]

You know, I really like what this change does to each type of fighter.

Those guys who love using the One Big Weapon will consistently see the short end of DR. Most of the time they'll just have to brute-force their way through the enemy DR. But, on the flip side, they'll always be able to brute-force their way through the enemy DR.
Sure, you could also carry a specialty sword, but it's just not worth it in the long run. Sacrificing a +3 enhancement bonus to bypass DR 5/silver just isn't worth it.

Sword 'n Board? You're more likely to have a backup weapon available, but not by that much.

Two-weapon user? They'll be just fine. You already had to enchant two weapons anyway, right? So now you have a +3 silver weapon in one hand and a +3 cold iron one in the other. Unlike those people who use one weapon, you're practically guaranteed to have a weapon at hand that bypasses the DR; just put that one in your main hand.

Archer? Okay, so 5 of the 50 arrows you had GMW'd this morning are silver. If by some miracle you run up against a lycanthrope, you just pull out the right arrow for the job. You can react to this sort of thing far more quickly than the fighters, and with less loss in power.

Let's also remember that DR doesn't stop extra damage dice like Flaming or Shocking.

 

[Grog]

The golfbag might be a good way to go for a paranoid low level character who rolled high on their gold roll. But when it gets to the point where the character says "I can either afford to raise my sword from mwk to +1, or I can buy a few more mwk weapons..just in case".

By the time the PCs hit 5th or 6th level, they'll most likely have enough money to afford as many ordinary weapons as they want. Silver, iron, copper, blunt, etc. None of those things are particularly expensive.

As far as metagaming out of existence? No. As a DM I would simply try to explain to the player that I try to keep a reign on how much magic each character has, so that it does not become a monty haul campaign.

Players having somewhere around the amount of wealth listed in the DMG =! a monty haul campaign. The whole CR system is balanced (rather poorly, but that's another issue) for PCs having something close to the amount of wealth by character level given in the DMG. If you want to run a campaign where PCs don't have as much money and magic, that's fine, but realize that you're not running a standard D&D campaign.

As such, you will need to make choices. If you want to spend 2,000 gold on HHH instead of a +1 weapon, thats fine. But what if some of the monsters have DR 5/+1 (as Im reasonably sure they will)? The point is a fighter will NOT be able to cover every DR base in the MM (I fervently hope not at least, maybe at higher levels if they sacrifice a powerful weapon for many weak ones, which of course is a trade-off, an option).

But they won't have to sacrifice a powerful weapon for many weak ones. The "many weak ones" are fairly cheap. The problem is that when a fighter is forced to sheathe his powerful weapon and pull out one of those many weak ones, his effectiveness drops considerably, even if he is getting past the DR.

And the other problem is that a fighter that doesn't want to carry around a golf bag of weapons, who doesn't feel that particular play style suits his character, is punished. That is a bad decision IMO.

If it is a DR 15 monster the characters will be high enough level to either cast a spell to improve the fighter, pool their resources to buy something new for the fighter, the fighter can maybe forge his own special weapons (!!!) and have the wizard enchant them. Theres a lot of possibilities, and it all just opens up the fighting classes that much more.

The new DR rules do not grant more options to the fighting classes. They take options away. That is the problem.

A dual wielder is going to have a very difficult time doing significant damage to creatures with DR if he doesn't have the proper weapon. Dual wielders are almost forced to go the golf bag route (and they need to carry twice as many weapons as anyone else.)

A finesse fighter is going to have a very difficult time doing significant damage through DR without a lot of Strength backing up his swings. He's almost forced into the golf bag route too.

I guess two-handed fighters have an option. They can carry around a lot of different weapons, or just do a lot less damage. There's an "option" for you.

I just don't understand why some people see DR as some sort of holy grail that needs to be protected at all costs, even when it results in a lot of problems, such as the aforementioned golf bag of weapons scenario. Were people really sitting around the gaming table saying, "Damn, but I wish I was required to carry a lot more weapons around!" Because that's what this change will amount to, for most fighter-type characters.

 

[Petrosian]

Re: Golfbag Failure

If you track PC wealth, the golfbag should not be an issue. Do I use my +2 greatsword of wounding, my +1 Cold Iron Maul, or should I go rooting through the "bag" will not be an issue, imo. Youll have 2 primary weapons and a ranged weapon, not a bag.

You have somehow invented the presumption that the weapons in the HEw or golfbag are all enchanted and thus all cost enough money to be a competing element in the PCs wealth.

I don't know where you came up with this. It seems like you invented this notion so that your solution would seem on point.

As i have said, the issue is that the various weapons are cheap. They will easily be normal or masterwork at best. By even 5th level, the prices of an assortment of these will not be a significant hit into the PCs wealth.

When enhancements are needed for these specialty weapons, the character will PLAN TO rely on magic weapons or GMW for these purposes. However, in most cases, he probably will just be planning on using them straight out.

Now, IF his main weapon is good enough that it makes more sense to use the weapon and just bull through, a sentient character will choose such. The fact that some of these cases will occur will not in and of itself lead most sentient characters to decide that he should thus not do the HEW route.

heck, most of my pcs go for HEWs anyway, even without the new "flavor" thing driving them to want golf bags of weapons, for the free action access to the porion, scroll, item they want.

YMMV.

Clearly, a Gm can add in his own house rules for magic items and special availability of materials weapons and so on to make sure that anyone who tries the new-rule-encouraged HEW or golf bag appraoch "gets their comeuppance" but, as the other poster observed... if it needs fixin, its broke.

 

[Galfridus]

The new DR rules do not grant more options to the fighting classes. They take options away. That is the problem.

That's right, and it's a good thing. As a DM, I've frequently looked at monsters with DR and realized that except for the non-fighters who might get caught in melee, it simply wasn't going to make a difference. DR x/silver is a joke at present unless it's on CR 2 or less monsters, since everyone else will have +1 items and bypass it.

So yes, it takes away /options/, and it forces /choices/, in an area where the one right choice was all too clear. Choices are a good thing, and I look forward to seeing what happens with the DR rules.

This reminds me very strongly of Magic Missile vs. incorporeality: the fact that the most common and powerful 1st level spell can affect incorporeal creatures takes a tremendous amount of bite out of incorporeality. Something else I hope they "revise".

 

[RigaMortus]

The more I read about this "revised" edition, the more it seems like 4E...

 

[Technik4]

Pricing

OK, I see why I havent really been connecting with some of these agruments. When I heard of special materials I immediately associated cost (and therefore the player must make a choice) with it. If you have looked at making mithril or adamantine weapons, you must know that these are expensive options. Also, if you have looked at MoF, sepcifically the exceptional materials section, these things are quite expensive.

From MoF

Copper: Armor only. +2,00gp Cold Resistance 2
Darksteel: Armor +2,000gp Acid Resistance 2, or Weapon +1,500gp +1 electricity damage
Dlarun: Armor +2,000gp Fire Resistance 2, or Weapon +1,500gp +1 frost damage
Fever Iron: Armor +2,000gp Fire Resistance 2, or Weapon +1,500gp +1 fire damage
Gold (magically treated): minimum 5,00gp for armor and upwards of 2,500gp for a weapon. Armor gets Acid and Fire Resistance 2, weapons become 'heavy' and there is a table showing increased damage.

Ok, those costs are significant. Mithril and Adamantine are significant costs. We come to silvered. This is the excerpt from MoF concerning silver:

Armor +2,000gp Electric Resistance 2
Weapon +1,000gp +1 damage to creatures whose DR is silver

That is what I was basing my argument on. Once again, MoF refers to "magically treated" silver, not just ordinary silver. Ordinary silver from the PHB costs 20 times as much for arrows and 5 times as much for the only weapon listed, a silver dagger.

We have nothing to base cold iron on, but if its anything like fevered iron, it will be expensive. You cannot have a golfbag full of these items and hope to have a magically enhanced primary weapon as good as someone without a golfbag.

Concerning bypassing DR:

DR 5: Likely to be seen at lower levels. It is a benefit to have spare normal weapons to switch to, as 5 pts per hit is a lot at lower levels. At higher levels, you probably won't bother switching weapons, as 5 points is rather minor compared to your magical weapon + feats + buffs.

DR 10: Likely to be seen at mid levels. Now its more of a stretch, your primary weapon should have at least a +2 enhancement (not necessarily +2 to hit and +2 damage), by switching weapons you give up those benefits and you are likely switching to "at best" a mwk version that will get through the DR. Personally, I would act as meat shield if my primary weapon wasnt getting the job done, or perhaps the party would need to escape and fight another day.

DR 15: Likely seen at high levels. By now your primary weapon has some serious mods on it. Exchanging that weapon is not even an option anymore, you best pray for crits and start wailing, the rest of the party might spend more than 20% of its assets in this fight, but likely youll just be losing hp.

I hope this illustrates why I dont see anyone with a HHH and switching out weapons (very often) based on the encounter. I wouldnt disallow it out of hand (some people are putting words into MY mouth) but I would explain that it makes for a worse character, and comes off as paranoia while in character.

"Jozan, what do you mean you didnt bring a Cold Iron weapon? Didnt I tell you at the shop to make sure we have all of our bases covered? Granted the blacksmith mentioned that he hasnt had requests for it in years, but what if? what if man!!"

Technik