Revised DR

[Geron Raveneye]

Re: Re: Uhm...

Wow...that would be great if it were true, if not, I'll snatch it as a house rule for 3.5

Edit: Changed my mind Given that a DR of 15 is going to be a rare and high value, this would make DR useless. By the time the PCs are fighting pit fiends I would suspect +2 and +3 weapons will be quite common, so why bother with even giving it DR 15/cold iron?

IceBear

To enable the characters to fight low-level demons better on levels where +2 or +3 weapons aren't so common yet?

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re: Re: Uhm...

To enable the characters to fight low-level demons better on levels where +2 or +3 weapons aren't so common yet?

Ah yes, so the skeleton's DR 5/blunt is overcome by the 2nd level mage with the +1 dagger. That's really going in the wrong direction with the DR changes. A pit fiend being fought by a 5th level party? Right. Remember, DR 15 is going to be the high end of the spectrum now. Most stuff will be DR 5 or 10. I would imagine in many cases that DR 5/silver will be even more useless than it is now if the DR is reduced by 5 per plus. A low level demon would probably be DR 5/cold iron. A +1 weapon negates it. Sure, that's probably how the system is now, so, why change it?

It sounds like they should have either just lowered the DR amount and left the "plusses" the same, or left the DR amount the same, used the special material, and use this idea that - the plus of the weapon reduces the DR by 5.

Edit: Shard's idea is better. I know it's basically the same, but at least the DR cap is raised to 25.

IceBear

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Uhm...

Ah yes, so the skeleton's DR 5/blunt is overcome by the 2nd level mage with the +1 dagger. That's really going in the wrong direction with the DR changes. A pit fiend being fought by a 5th level party? Right. Remember, DR 15 is going to be the high end of the spectrum now. Most stuff will be DR 5 or 10. I would imagine in many cases that DR 5/silver will be even more useless than it is now if the DR is reduced by 5 per plus. A low level demon would probably be DR 5/cold iron. A +1 weapon negates it. Sure, that's probably how the system is now, so, why change it?

It sounds like they should have either just lowered the DR amount and left the "plusses" the same, or left the DR amount the same, used the special material, and use this idea that - the plus of the weapon reduces the DR by 5.

Edit: Shard's idea is better. I know it's basically the same, but at least the DR cap is raised to 25.

IceBear

Well, if you really have a +1 dagger as 2nd level wizard...why not say that the magic power of the dagger is enough to overcome the DR of a creature with, let's say, 5/silver?

Fiends usually get X/holysilver, as far as I remember, and I'm NOT sure 15 is the upper cap of DR either...I for my part would guess around 25 to 30 for high-power devils, for example. And well, of course a low-level group shouldn't actually FIGHT a pit-fiend but who says they can't at least bluff it a bit by being able to hurt it with holysilver weapons without having to resort to high-magic weaponry? Same goes for a low-magic/low-level group that needs to clear out a minor demon from an old ruin..they can attack it without the NEED for magical weapons.

Edit: And by the way...I guess you have the old MM, so there's no problem of simply adding the old DR ratings to the new DR system?

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Uhm...

Well, if you really have a +1 dagger as 2nd level wizard...why not say that the magic power of the dagger is enough to overcome the DR of a creature with, let's say, 5/silver?

Fiends usually get X/holysilver, as far as I remember, and I'm NOT sure 15 is the upper cap of DR either...I for my part would guess around 25 to 30 for high-power devils, for example. And well, of course a low-level group shouldn't actually FIGHT a pit-fiend but who says they can't at least bluff it a bit by being able to hurt it with holysilver weapons without having to resort to high-magic weaponry?

Skeletons are going to have DR 5/blunt instead of slashing and piercing weapons causing half damage. I was just pointing out at a weak wizard with a +1 dagger was suddenly going to have the capability of blowing skeletons apart.

Hmmmm - Andy Collins has said that DR 15 was going to be at the upper end of the DR scale (I could see some golems with more, but for the most part it's going to be 15).

BTW - here is the stats for the revised pit fiend:

Devil, Pit Fiend
Larger Outsider (Baatezu, Evil, Extraplanar, Lawful)
Hit Dice: 18d8+144 (255 hp)
Initiative: +12
Speed: 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 40 (-1 size, +8 Dex, +23 natural) touch 17, flat footed 32
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+36
Attack: Claw +30 melee (2d8+14)Full Attack: 2 claws +30 melee (2d8+14) and 2 wings +28 melee (2d6+7) and bite +28 melee (4d6+7 and poison plus disease) and tail slap +28 (2d8+7)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d8+28, fear aura, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon baatezu.
Special Qualities: Acid resistance 10, cold resistance 10, DR 15/holysilver, fire immunity, poison immunity, regeneration 5, see in darkness, SR 32, telepathy.
Saves: Fort +19, Fef +19, Will +21.
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26.
Skills: Balance +10, Bluff +29, Climb +34, Concentration +29, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +29 (+31 acting), Hide +25, Intimidate +31, Jump +35, Knowledge (arcana) +29, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Knowledge (religion) +29, Listen +29, Move Silently +29, Search +29, Spellcraft +31, Spot +29, Survival +8 (+10 on other planes), Tumble +31.
Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Imitative, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability.


Tactics Round-by-Round
The pit fiend opens with spell-like powers, attempting to neutralize dangerous opponents before entering melee combat.


Round 0: Unholy aura; activate fear aura, quickened summon Baatezu.

Round 1: Mass hold monster if facing three or more visible, active opponents; otherwise power word stun against unarmored opponents (preferably a spellcaster).

Round 2: Meteor swarm against as many foes as possible, approach worst-injured enemy.

Round 3: Full attack against injured enemy.

Round 4: Continue melee against injured enemy, or power word stun against annoying spellcaster.

Round 5: Repeat from round 1; or greater teleport to safety if endangered.

See - DR 15/holysilver. Now, honestly do you think PCs without being at levels where +2 or +3 weapons are common will be fighting it? If so, then it makes the new DR system useless. If not, well, they're going to die anyway.

Edit: And here's a quote from Andy Collins on this too:

That's the fact that DR *values* are going down, almost across the board. As I shared at Winter Fantasy, the vast majority of monsters will have DR 5 or 10 (a few, such as the mighty pit fiend, creep up to 15). That means that the fighter who doesn't have the right weapon can still dish out damage to a DR monster, just not as much. (Can you say Power Attack?)

See, 15 sounds like it's going to be the upper limit and only on powerful monsters (normally fought by powerful PCs who are going to have +3 weapons and thereby negating the DR anyway. Since this simple fact is going to negate the special materials requirement that they're adding I just don't see this "every +1 negates 5 DR" as being true. If it is true, then it makes this DR change even more silly, just make everything DR 5/+1, 10/+2, 15/+3, 20/+4 and 25/+5 and get rid of all the special materials).

IceBear

 

[Teleri_mm]

The amount of posts on this subject shows how hard it is to come up with a good system for DR... but from what I have read about the new system and what I have seen here I think it will be VERY good. The point of the whole system is not to force every fighter to carry every type of weapon but to give monsters flavor. So what if it has DC 10/silver ... if you don’t have any silver weapons you will just do less damage that fight and maybe just maybe the players will have to be creative to deal with the encounter. Even if they just charge right in and the DM is using the right CR monsters for your group you will survive.

I have run 3 campaigns since 3e came out one to 18 and two to 12 and the DR system now is totally flawed… this change brings the monsters with DR closer to there CR levels… I am happy WotC has the balls to change it!

Basically: Stop complaining till you have used the system for 3 years and then make a judgment.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well...

...no...but what Pit-Fiend will be able to immedeately ascertain that his "puny" opponents will only keep up for two rounds of combat once the elven ranger has peppered him with two arrows that hurt him all the way through his damage resistance? And can you imagine the tales a group can tell about "facing off a terrible demon from the nether hells"...actually living to tell the tale, because the pit-fiend thought caution the better part of valor for once..or simply didn't want to bother that much damage in wiping out a low-level group?

In the end, as far as I see it, the new DR system is meant to add flavour and potential for memorable scenes.

 

[IceBear]

Re: Well...

...no...but what Pit-Fiend will be able to immedeately ascertain that his "puny" opponents will only keep up for two rounds of combat once the elven ranger has peppered him with two arrows that hurt him all the way through his damage resistance? And can you imagine the tales a group can tell about "facing off a terrible demon from the nether hells"...actually living to tell the tale, because the pit-fiend thought caution the better part of valor for once..or simply didn't want to bother that much damage in wiping out a low-level group?

In the end, as far as I see it, the new DR system is meant to add flavour and potential for memorable scenes.

And I wasn't arguing that. I was just stating that your rumor of "each +1 your weapon has will negate 5 DR" doesn't make sense given the current information (especially since you were unaware the 15 was going to be the upper cap of the DR). That's what I was pointing out.

That pit fiend has 255hp. That 5th level ranger isn't going to hurt it enough to make it run. And it's from hell - why wouldn't it enjoy killing some mortals for fun. Yes, I can forsee circumstances were the party will fight something well beyond their capabilities, but my point is that it's not a common occurence (and the EL/CR system tries to keep it rare).

Anyway, unless you can provide a credible for that rumour, I don't buy it. It is just contrary to what they were trying to do with the whole special materials and lower DR in the first place. Maybe a variant rule in the revised DMG with some more rules? I just think it completely does away with the who special material thing that was the purpose of the change.

IceBear

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Re: Re: Well...

And I wasn't arguing that. I was just stating that your rumor of "each +1 your weapon has will negate 5 DR" doesn't make sense given the current information (especially since you were unaware the 15 was going to be the upper cap of the DR). That's what I was pointing out.

That pit fiend has 255hp. That 5th level ranger isn't going to hurt it enough to make it run. And it's from hell - why wouldn't it enjoy killing some mortals for fun. Yes, I can forsee circumstances were the party will fight something well beyond their capabilities, but my point is that it's not a common occurence (and the EL/CR system tries to keep it rare).

Anyway, unless you can provide a credible for that rumour, I don't buy it. It is just contrary to what they were trying to do with the whole special materials and lower DR in the first place.

IceBear

Heh, yeah, I wish I could remember right now...until that, I fear it'll have to stay an unbased rumor.

But if the idea is not making sense within the new DR system is another matter. It sure does something for people who will wonder why their priced +1 or +2 sword that helped them kill off a lot of nasties doesn't do anything against a lowly shapeshifter that can only be hurt by silver all of a sudden? Or do you fancy starting all your games anew because of a new DR system?

EDIT: By the way...the old Pit-Fiend DR was 25/+2...so where's the problem with a +3 weapon negating the new Pit-Fiend's DR under new rules? Except for the difference in the DR amount...?

 

[IceBear]

Re: Re: Re: Well...

Heh, yeah, I wish I could remember right now...until that, I fear it'll have to stay an unbased rumor.

But if the idea is not making sense within the new DR system is another matter. It sure does something for people who will wonder why their priced +1 or +2 sword that helped them kill off a lot of nasties doesn't do anything against a lowly shapeshifter that can only be hurt by silver all of a sudden? Or do you fancy starting all your games anew because of a new DR system?

GUY - READ THIS THREAD

The whole debate here is just that.

I'm going to post Andy's quote again and I'll highlight the key point:

That's the fact that DR *values* are going down, almost across the board. As I shared at Winter Fantasy, the vast majority of monsters will have DR 5 or 10 (a few, such as the mighty pit fiend, creep up to 15). That means that the fighter who doesn't have the right weapon can still dish out damage to a DR monster, just not as much. (Can you say Power Attack?)

Now, what he's saying here is that if you're fighting a werewolf with a DR of 5/silver, they still believe that you could hurt it without silver weapons (you just wouldn't do as much). Other's on here argue that people will just start carrying around magic weapons, silver weapons, cold iron weapons, etc.

The reason your rumor doesn't make sense is because they WANT you to use special materials now. If a +1 sword blows through DR 5/silver then it goes against this new principle.

Here's the quote from Andy to prove that point:

The change from a strict hierarchy to a single specific quality, damage type, or material of the weapon (or in very rare cases, a combination of two) is indeed an attempt to recapture the "flavor" of damage reduction: werewolves are resistant to non-silver weapons, fey are most vulnerable to cold iron, skeletons are resistant to piercing & slashing weapons, demons are vulnerable to good-aligned weapons, and so on. As a number of people have pointed out, it's lame that all the flavor of the "special material" DR is completely lost once the party has +1 weapons at hand (or even ready access to the magic weapon spell). And the hierarchy of pluses introduces the ugly metagame element of characters rating weapons (and monsters) by plus rather than by the actual qualities of the weapon (magic, silver, piercing, holy, whatever).

See, they DON'T want plusses negating DR anymore. This thread is debating whether or not this is a good idea. Your rumor flies completely in the face of this, and thus I believe it false or misinformed.

IceBear

 

[Geron Raveneye]

So...

...you wouldn't mind your +1 magical sword being useless against a Pit-Fiend, even though it's magical? Just curious...and yes, I'm aware it trashes the "special material" concept at lower DR values...