Revised monk

Charisma isn't "force of will." It is "force of personality." I doubt a monk, someone who is essentially a hermit that can fight, would be either loud or overly concerned with his popularity.
You're right, it IS force of personality... but having a strong personality doesn't necessarily mean the person is brash and outgoing. It means that he has a strong sense of self, that he won't back down from a challenge... it's self-awareness, basically, as opposed to Wisdom, which is instinct, experience, and learning.

the houserule"no more than 2 ability scores can add to armor at the same time, and one of them hasto be dex" has always fixed that exploit in games ive played. then there are no uber monk duelists ect etc who add every fricking stat to their ac.
I've never seen that one, but it's definitely a good idea.
 

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Stats for the New Monk

Greetings All,

Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.

My advice would be to go with a single prime Requisite ability for the class, your earlier post about Cha vs. Wis raised some interesting thoughts, Cha would imply that the martial artists relied on their force of personality like a bard or sorcerer, Wisdom implies that they rely on intuition, discipline, and understanding like a cleric.

While both present interesting options, I will have to weigh in for wisdom in this case. I think that intuition and understanding suits the nature of marital arts better than charisma. Also to compound my opinion I have some experience (though limited) with martial arts, and it seems to me that perception is perhaps the biggest component of any martial art.

Allow me to explain:

1: In D&D spot and listen are linked to wisdom, these skills control your characters ability to perceive the world around him.

2: Martial artists have the reputation for being powerful fighters, this is based on not only how to throw a punch or kick but where and when to throw it. In effect the characters perception of the opponent controls his effectiveness far more than other classes. An axe in the chest is an axe in the chest armor or no, but a punch has to land just so.

3: It opens an option that might forge interesting in game combinations, the base monk class abilities based on wisdom and perception, but the fighting styles based on other attributes to flesh out what a given monk chooses to do with the world he perceives.

-- As an aside if the base abilities are keyed to wisdom, using physical attributes would help round out the idea that the styles are physical outlets for the trained perceptions and disciplines of the monk.

Just thoughts, hope some of this is useful to you.
 

^ What he said.

While it's interesting to think of a more swashbuckling brawler, or a wrestling bandit, it's not really a monk anymore. Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.
 

Greetings All,

Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.

My advice would be to go with a single prime Requisite ability for the class, your earlier post about Cha vs. Wis raised some interesting thoughts, Cha would imply that the martial artists relied on their force of personality like a bard or sorcerer, Wisdom implies that they rely on intuition, discipline, and understanding like a cleric.

While both present interesting options, I will have to weigh in for wisdom in this case. I think that intuition and understanding suits the nature of marital arts better than charisma. Also to compound my opinion I have some experience (though limited) with martial arts, and it seems to me that perception is perhaps the biggest component of any martial art.

Allow me to explain:

1: In D&D spot and listen are linked to wisdom, these skills control your characters ability to perceive the world around him.

2: Martial artists have the reputation for being powerful fighters, this is based on not only how to throw a punch or kick but where and when to throw it. In effect the characters perception of the opponent controls his effectiveness far more than other classes. An axe in the chest is an axe in the chest armor or no, but a punch has to land just so.

3: It opens an option that might forge interesting in game combinations, the base monk class abilities based on wisdom and perception, but the fighting styles based on other attributes to flesh out what a given monk chooses to do with the world he perceives.

-- As an aside if the base abilities are keyed to wisdom, using physical attributes would help round out the idea that the styles are physical outlets for the trained perceptions and disciplines of the monk.

Just thoughts, hope some of this is useful to you.
As a generic martial artist, your point stands perfectly, but these different schools draw from different things for their power, so while they all require training and intuition, each is keyed to the ability score that best matches where they draw their inner power.

^ What he said.

While it's interesting to think of a more swashbuckling brawler, or a wrestling bandit, it's not really a monk anymore. Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.

it really has nothing to do with appearance, or persuasiveness, though it does have to do with their personality. Charisma isn't about your D cup boobs or chiseled jaw, it has to do with your personality (whether you have one, and how much of one), Your ability to be likable if you want to be, and in this case it is also the stat that most accurately measures anything related to your emotions.

I'll re-break it down for you so can understand the concept, moth.

--------------------------------------------
Standard Monk: Relies on discipline. The stereotypical martial artist, except they get all sorts of weird supernatural abilities that probably shouldne be there.

We however broke it down into schools, who all draw from something different.

Mountain: These martial artists rely on their own toughness more than anything else. their endurance, and the ability to just shake off things that would make others collapse.
Specialized Ability Score: CONSTITUTION

Sea: These martial artists rely on focus, discipline, and 'inner peace'. They flow around the opponent, and are very wise.
Specialized Ability Score: WISDOM

Wind: These martial artists are focused on speed. They go faster, and learn more and more evasion. When the opponent goes to strike them, they are already gone. They could spend a fight entirely behind the opponent, never giving them a chance to see them face to face to hit them. Or they could let the opponent see them, swing at them, and just never allow the opponent's attacks to connect.
Specialized Ability Score: DEXTERITY

Sun: Primarily an offensive martial art, they focus on channeling their emotions, particularly passion or agression. They are fast, and strong, but have very little defensive abilities. The goal is to take down the opponent before they get to hit you, because you aren't as tough or evasive as other schools.
Specialized Ability Score: CHARISMA

The abilities that don't see use are Int and Str. 2 more schools COULD be added, and one of them 'almost' was.

There was a school focused on pressure points, and paralysis from hitting certain points on the body etc. They would have been perfect for Int. Mayhaps they will be added after.

and As for STR, an STR based monk would be like Mountain, still slow, but would be more damage focused and less defensive. What types of abilities they would use, I don't know exactly.
 
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Now that I have explained the different Abilities, I'm going to evaluate all the schools in detail. as well as some general issues.

General:
1. Do they get all the abilities for their rank? or do they have to pick. If they are expected to pick, some of them are better than others.

2. Compass Points: West - most abilities are non-duration abilities, so this is kindof useless. except with wind, and even then it's not useful until youre a grandmaster.

3. Awareness of Self: Do they get this while unconscious? its a result of their training, and they can't use it, so I would think other than Mountain's DR they would not.

4. Not all the schools presently have a default ability that they get. Mountain does, and maybe sea, but that's it.

Mountain:

Iron Fist: So this ability does NOTHING to non constructs/objects?

???: Does this damage the first object, or just the distanced object? What if your first object is a creature (which I see no real reason it should not be)

Rooted in the Earth: stack with the Awareness of Self DR? because it should, and by default it doesn't.

A permanent Earthsense would be a totally awesome ability - just throwing that out there. Maybe asa higher up ability or something.

Earthquake strike: should add the Monk's STR to the damage.


Sea:
Defensive Roll: making it a reflex save is kindof wind-like. maybe it would be better to make it wis-based (experience, and prediction instead of speed) and revolve around redirecting the attack as the explanation on how they take less damage.

Fatiguing Strike:
uses CHA right now, and that is probably an oversight.

Relentless Waves: maybe you should specify the size of the object. if someone is using it on a wall, for example, it shouldnt be the whole wall, just a section.

???: specify that the 5 feet to redirect should allow "through" the monk's square, but to 5 ft behind them. The monk and the attacker should effectively switch squares in that case.

Sun:

I'm not familiar with Ki Rage or Stunning Fist so I'll look them up later.

???: Disarming seems more of a sea thing than a fire thing.

Fireburst: This should be allowed to be worked into a flurry attack (though obviously would have to be the last attack for that to work)

Improvised Weapon: This makes fire come off as a bit of a drunken brawler instead of a martial artist, and I don't think it really fits.

Wind:

The extra attacks should maybe be a defensive speed ability. Also they're not well defined as to how many extra attacks give what penalties and whatnot.

???: it shouldnt be 3x per day, I think this is the defining characteristic of the school. it should be limited in a non-use way, or the school should lack something else to compensate. the 3x per day should be more like once per round or so. Maybe make it eat up a move action as the limit, so while evading attacks they cant do a flurry.

Rushing Wind: The size needs to vary depending on the monk's size, because they aren't all going to be medium creatures. do like a double/half thing depending, etc.

Aspect of the Wind:
How does one determine if they stop moving? I know players who would assume that means at the end of the round, so it needs to be more clearly defined. I can guess how you want it to work, but it would be better if you actually said. Change the wording of can't fly to 'doesn't gain the ability to fly', because if the monk has another means of flight, your raw would take it away.

~Darkholme out.
 

Guess I missed something

Greetings,

Are these fighting styles / learned or inherent to a character who chooses this class? Does he study them and learn them, or does he just manifest them automatically?
 

Pretty Surethey're supposed to be like a learned thing, possibly also cultural. There isnt presently a way to dabble and learn from multiple schools though.
 

Kerrick, your monk class build is quite elegant. You have a real Knack for eying the required balances.
Thanks! Though I've had quite a bit of help with this thing.

Are these fighting styles / learned or inherent to a character who chooses this class? Does he study them and learn them, or does he just manifest them automatically?
Definitely learned. Players should RP learning them from a master instead of just gaining the knowledge automatically; I would assume that most PCs starting as monks would have it in their backstory, and others would acquire the knowledge in the course of their training to gain monk levels later in life. Since it's a base class, I won't make it a hard requirement like I would for a PrC.

There's no real way to learn multiple styles, as yet... I suppose I could allow the monk to start learning a new style once he reaches Initiate level in his existing style, if he wants to suffer MAD syndrome.

While both present interesting options, I will have to weigh in for wisdom in this case. I think that intuition and understanding suits the nature of marital arts better than charisma. Also to compound my opinion I have some experience (though limited) with martial arts, and it seems to me that perception is perhaps the biggest component of any martial art.
I'm not sure which martial art you practice(d), but I played judo in college (I had to quit my senior year because I'd racked up too many injuries). Not all martial arts are created equal - judo, for example, is called "the gentle way" - it centers around throws, pins, chokeholds, and joint locks. There is no punching or kicking at all. Judo is very much a Dex-based martial art - it's all about balance and leverage, with a little Strength thrown in if you get into a grappling situation (it borrows a lot from wrestling too). Capoeira, a Brazilian martial art that strongly resembles a dance, is also Dex-based. Kung fu? Charisma. Sumo? Strength all the way. (I'm not exactly sure if sumo wresting is a martial art, but it's good example.) Tai chi is the only thing I can think of, off the top of my head, that's Wis-based. It's very self-centered (as in, focused on the body and its location and position in space), and very slow and precise.

3: It opens an option that might forge interesting in game combinations, the base monk class abilities based on wisdom and perception, but the fighting styles based on other attributes to flesh out what a given monk chooses to do with the world he perceives.
See, that's exactly why I went with differing abilities for each style - to present different RP opportunities for each individual monk.

Martial arts are indeed based on perception and intuition rather than how good your smile looks.
Charisma is not just good looks. Charisma is also sense of self and strength of personality - it's why constructs (and mindless undead) have 1 Charisma, and objects have 0.

1. Do they get all the abilities for their rank? or do they have to pick. If they are expected to pick, some of them are better than others.
They have to choose. And yes, I know some are better - I'm working on that. As long as they aren't must-have abilities (like the Wind Style fast movement, before I removed it), I'm okay with it, by and large - you can choose lower-level abilities at higher levels, if you want.

2. Compass Points: West - most abilities are non-duration abilities, so this is kindof useless. except with wind, and even then it's not useful until youre a grandmaster.
Hmph. Any suggestions?

3. Awareness of Self: Do they get this while unconscious? its a result of their training, and they can't use it, so I would think other than Mountain's DR they would not.
No, and Mountain loses the DR too - it's as much a function of being able to ignore pain and shrug off damage as anything, and being unconscious doesn't enable you to do that.

4. Not all the schools presently have a default ability that they get. Mountain does, and maybe sea, but that's it.
I know. I'd like to add default abilities to all the schools, but I'll probably just drop Mountain's ability instead.

Iron Fist: So this ability does NOTHING to non constructs/objects?
Yes... it just bypasses hardness if used against a construct or object. I'll fix the wording.

???: Does this damage the first object, or just the distanced object? What if your first object is a creature (which I see no real reason it should not be)
Have you ever seen someone strike a stack of blocks and break ONE block 3/4 of the way down the stack? That's what this is. (I've seen it, and it's really incredible, BTW.) I suppose you could channel the force through a living being.... I hadn't really thought about it.

Rooted in the Earth: stack with the Awareness of Self DR? because it should, and by default it doesn't.
DR always overlaps.

A permanent Earthsense would be a totally awesome ability - just throwing that out there. Maybe asa higher up ability or something.
Maybe as a PrC ability - not for the base monk. :)

Earthquake strike: should add the Monk's STR to the damage.
Good idea.

Defensive Roll: making it a reflex save is kindof wind-like. maybe it would be better to make it wis-based (experience, and prediction instead of speed) and revolve around redirecting the attack as the explanation on how they take less damage.
Good call. I think I just C&P'ed the text without thinking about it.

Fatiguing Strike: uses CHA right now, and that is probably an oversight.
Yeah.

Relentless Waves: maybe you should specify the size of the object. if someone is using it on a wall, for example, it shouldnt be the whole wall, just a section.
Yeah. Let's say... an object up to one size larger per rank (a section of wall 10 feet square and 6 inches thick is Large; each foot of thickness increases the size by one.)

???: specify that the 5 feet to redirect should allow "through" the monk's square, but to 5 ft behind them. The monk and the attacker should effectively switch squares in that case.
The monk sidesteps the attack, forcing the attacker to lunge forward and skewer his friend standing behind the monk? Nice.

I'm not familiar with Ki Rage or Stunning Fist so I'll look them up later.
Ki rage is identical to the barbarian's rage, except that the bonuses are Str and Dex instead of Str/Con. Stunning Fist is just the feat from the PHB. Now that I think about it, I might just take that out. Your comment about an Int-based style got me thinking... I could take Pain touch, Scorpion Fist, and Quivering Palm, along with Stunning Fist and maybe a couple other abilities (death attack?), and make them into an advanced style (a PrC), the Shadow Style. This would focus around disabling/crippling the opponent through precision strikes.

Fireburst: This should be allowed to be worked into a flurry attack (though obviously would have to be the last attack for that to work)
Definitely. I could see someone delivering a quick series of blows followed by a powerful uppercut.

Improvised Weapon: This makes fire come off as a bit of a drunken brawler instead of a martial artist, and I don't think it really fits.
Neither did I, really - I just tossed it in to fill a slot. I got the idea from the movie Iron Monkey (good movie, BTW), which is fairly wuxia. The protagonists (who are kung-fu experts) use various improvised weapons, like an umbrella, to beat their enemies silly. I'll drop it.

The extra attacks should maybe be a defensive speed ability. Also they're not well defined as to how many extra attacks give what penalties and whatnot.
Which? The unarmed attacks from the flurry?

???: it shouldnt be 3x per day, I think this is the defining characteristic of the school. it should be limited in a non-use way, or the school should lack something else to compensate. the 3x per day should be more like once per round or so. Maybe make it eat up a move action as the limit, so while evading attacks they cant do a flurry.
A move action works. It'd be like the dodge action from Rifts - you can attempt to dodge an incoming attack, but you lose one of your actions to do so. Don't forget, though, that a 15th level monk can flurry as a standard action - this would make Wind monks especially dangerous.

Rushing Wind: The size needs to vary depending on the monk's size, because they aren't all going to be medium creatures. do like a double/half thing depending, etc.
The size of the wind doesn't really matter, because the bullrush bonus is based on the monk's size. A 5-foot-wide corridor is easiest, because it conforms to the standard size of a square.

Aspect of the Wind: How does one determine if they stop moving? I know players who would assume that means at the end of the round, so it needs to be more clearly defined. I can guess how you want it to work, but it would be better if you actually said. Change the wording of can't fly to 'doesn't gain the ability to fly', because if the monk has another means of flight, your raw would take it away.
Mm, good point. It should be "as long as the monk is in motion", with the implication that if he was moving at the end of his turn, he remains in that state unless he chooses not to move (or to stop moving) on his next turn. I'll fix it. And I'll fix the second part too.

BTW, I took this ability away with the plan to give it to the PrC Wind Style; I've bumped Cloudwalk to Grandmaster (with the ability to run on water) and put this one in its place:

Whirlwind (Ex): 3 + Dex bonus times per day, the monk can make a single attack at her highest base attack bonus against all opponents within her reach. She can make a 5-foot step before or during this attack. She does not gain the benefit of extra attacks from feats like Cleave or spells like haste.

Basically it's a greater whirlwind attack, but it fits the Wind Style to a T.

Thanks for all the feedback - I'll post the changes later tonight or tomorrow.
 

There's no real way to learn multiple styles, as yet... I suppose I could allow the monk to start learning a new style once he reaches Initiate level in his existing style, if he wants to suffer MAD syndrome.
Just allow them to pursue a new school if they choose; even allow the ranks to stack, you just need a way to work out the difference between the non-ranked powers, because they can't just take all of thm, you know?


They have to choose. And yes, I know some are better - I'm working on that. As long as they aren't must-have abilities (like the Wind Style fast movement, before I removed it), I'm okay with it, by and large - you can choose lower-level abilities at higher levels, if you want.
Sounds good.

Hmph. Any suggestions?
Replace it with something new. ;) No suggestions as to with what yet, though.

No, and Mountain loses the DR too - it's as much a function of being able to ignore pain and shrug off damage as anything, and being unconscious doesn't enable you to do that.
DR wouldnt be shrugging off pain, or they would still take the damage ans just wouldnt drop at 0 or incur penalties. The only explanation I have for the DR is effectively something like natural armor or something like a construct's DR... maybe it should be natural armor instead of DR...

I know. I'd like to add default abilities to all the schools, but I'll probably just drop Mountain's ability instead.
That's unfortunate, the default abilities are cool, you just need more of them.


Yes... it just bypasses hardness if used against a construct or object. I'll fix the wording.
So hitting a live creature with it does no damage, you don't get to flurry, AND you only do a d6 damage? no monk in his right ming would take that. They'll do better without it.


Have you ever seen someone strike a stack of blocks and break ONE block 3/4 of the way down the stack? That's what this is. (I've seen it, and it's really incredible, BTW.) I suppose you could channel the force through a living being.... I hadn't really thought about it.
So the idea is you hit a solid object, the one you hit takes no damage, but something touching it x distance behind takes it instead?


DR always overlaps.
Then it makes the DR the class gets instead of AC become useless. And where you're rooted in place, and can't move, you esentially would have to choose between a dex bonus to AC or the ability. effectively giving you an AC of 10? maybe I'm missing something.


Maybe as a PrC ability - not for the base monk. :)
I think for a higher rank it could increase maybe. that would be awesome.


The monk sidesteps the attack, forcing the attacker to lunge forward and skewer his friend standing behind the monk? Nice.
Of course, you could say the monk gives the attacker a friendly push along the way when he sidesteps as well since its a deflection, otherwise why doesnt the attacker just stop, right?


I might just take that out. Your comment about an Int-based style got me thinking... I could take Pain touch, Scorpion Fist, and Quivering Palm, along with Stunning Fist and maybe a couple other abilities (death attack?), and make them into an advanced style (a PrC), the Shadow Style. This would focus around disabling/crippling the opponent through precision strikes.
Honestly, I don't think PrC is the way to go. a PrC that uses a different stat than whatever school the monk starts in would make the monk very weak, for one, and 2, that should totally just be a regular school, you just need abilities to flesh it out. it's totally awesome. Anything with a save or die blows though. Worst mechanic ever. However, a high level martial arts based petrification ability might be sweet. Have some paralysis, partial paralysis, maybe an attack that causes unconsciousness (non- magically induced sleep (works on elves)) something that disables the use of limbs, maybe something that renders the opponent flat footed for x time, etc.


Definitely. I could see someone delivering a quick series of blows followed by a powerful uppercut.
Sweet.


Neither did I, really - I just tossed it in to fill a slot. I got the idea from the movie Iron Monkey (good movie, BTW), which is fairly wuxia. The protagonists (who are kung-fu experts) use various improvised weapons, like an umbrella, to beat their enemies silly. I'll drop it.
It's for the best :P Put in something that gives you free attacks of opportunity against them somehow instead. And when I say free, I mean have it not count towards the standard attack of opportunity. And be triggered by somethign that wouldnt normally trigger it.


Which? The unarmed attacks from the flurry?
Yeah, how many do they get? what do they lose for the extras? I'd probably drop this and give them something defensive. I dunno what exactly, but something. maybe an ability that allows dodging an attack in such a way that you end up Behind the opponent. Or a dodge ability that lowers their to-hit by 2 every miss from exertion. Cumulatively. and them get them back at a rate of 1 per round. Like as an expanded version of the existing dodge that you can take higher. - or come up with some other non-extra attack ability. I kindof see wind as being less about attacking and more about movility. and maybe nonlethal things. O.o


A move action works. It'd be like the dodge action from Rifts - you can attempt to dodge an incoming attack, but you lose one of your actions to do so. Don't forget, though, that a 15th level monk can flurry as a standard action - this would make Wind monks especially dangerous.
This, I like.


The size of the wind doesn't really matter, because the bullrush bonus is based on the monk's size. A 5-foot-wide corridor is easiest, because it conforms to the standard size of a square.


Mm, good point. It should be "as long as the monk is in motion", with the implication that if he was moving at the end of his turn, he remains in that state unless he chooses not to move (or to stop moving) on his next turn. I'll fix it. And I'll fix the second part too.

BTW, I took this ability away with the plan to give it to the PrC Wind Style; I've bumped Cloudwalk to Grandmaster (with the ability to run on water) and put this one in its place:

Whirlwind (Ex): 3 + Dex bonus times per day, the monk can make a single attack at her highest base attack bonus against all opponents within her reach. She can make a 5-foot step before or during this attack. She does not gain the benefit of extra attacks from feats like Cleave or spells like haste.

Basically it's a greater whirlwind attack, but it fits the Wind Style to a T.

Thanks for all the feedback - I'll post the changes later tonight or tomorrow.
While I like the whirlwind, I dont like the idea of making the monks go into prestige classes that are just slight variations on their existing school. And where the monks have to pick which ability they want, they should get more opportunities to pick. and they should get Grandmaster earlier, and additional rank powers afterwards and before that don't necessarily change your rank, particularly if you are going to make them specialize into prestige classes(which I think are not a good idea).

I would suggest instead of monk PrCs, it might be a better Idea to just have some monk feats. feats are lighter than a whole PrC, which I think is too much investment and too much deviation from the class. Possibly some feats that allow extra abilities from your school as well, or something like that.
 

Just allow them to pursue a new school if they choose; even allow the ranks to stack, you just need a way to work out the difference between the non-ranked powers, because they can't just take all of thm, you know?
How about half the ranks from your previous style (round down) count toward the new one? New martial arts are easier to learn once you've gotten the rudiments of an existing style (for the most part), so some stacking would be logical, but it would avoid too much stacking.

So hitting a live creature with it does no damage, you don't get to flurry, AND you only do a d6 damage? no monk in his right ming would take that. They'll do better without it.
Wrong on both counts. It deals PLUS 1d6 damage to ANY target, living or not, which also bypasses DR/hardness. That's a HUGE benefit for any monk of less than 16th level (when they get ki strike adamantine). It does become less effective at higher levels, though, when they get more attacks and can deal more damage.

So the idea is you hit a solid object, the one you hit takes no damage, but something touching it x distance behind takes it instead?
Precisely.

Then it makes the DR the class gets instead of AC become useless. And where you're rooted in place, and can't move, you esentially would have to choose between a dex bonus to AC or the ability. effectively giving you an AC of 10? maybe I'm missing something.
Huh? Dex bonus to AC isn't DR. He would still gain his Dex bonus, AND his dodge bonus from Awareness of Self (because he's not immobilized, helpless, or unconscious), AND have DR 10/- on top of it. I don't see the problem.

I think for a higher rank it could increase maybe. that would be awesome.
Maybe I could increase it to 1 round/level at Grandmaster. I'm just worried about someone spamming it, and I seriously believe that having constant tremorsense out to 100 ft. (at 20th level) is just a BIT overpowered.

Honestly, I don't think PrC is the way to go. a PrC that uses a different stat than whatever school the monk starts in would make the monk very weak, for one, and 2, that should totally just be a regular school, you just need abilities to flesh it out. it's totally awesome. Anything with a save or die blows though. Worst mechanic ever.
I had that style - Sun and Moon. Everyone said it didn't fit, so I cut it. I do agree, though, that it'd be better served as a base style rather than a PrC style.

However, a high level martial arts based petrification ability might be sweet. Have some paralysis, partial paralysis, maybe an attack that causes unconsciousness (non- magically induced sleep (works on elves)) something that disables the use of limbs, maybe something that renders the opponent flat footed for x time, etc.
Very good ideas here. I've already got disabling limbs (that's Scorpion Fist), and I was thinking about paralysis, though I thought it'd be too SoD. Partial paralysis is good, or a slow effect; dazing blow, blinding strike, and a couple others I've still got. I could definitely do this.

Put in something that gives you free attacks of opportunity against them somehow instead. And when I say free, I mean have it not count towards the standard attack of opportunity. And be triggered by somethign that wouldnt normally trigger it.
Hmm. I plan to work on refining exactly what causes AoOs (cause that section's a mess), so that would have to wait a bit. I was thinking about making an ability that would let the monk reflect a melee attack back on its source, but it might be overpowered (and hard to do right, mechanically).

Yeah, how many do they get? what do they lose for the extras?
Hmm. I know it's supposed to be in there somewhere, but I can't find where it says that Wind Style gets an extra flurry attack. I know I'd intended for it to be like the original monk's progression (so the extra attack would be at their highest BAB, -2).

maybe an ability that allows dodging an attack in such a way that you end up Behind the opponent.
That would be a good Acolyte-level ability - you can burn a move action to dodge the opponent and end up in a flanking position (which is still adjacent to the foe - he can't move more than 5 feet, as opposed to the Master-level ability that lets you move 10 feet).

I kindof see wind as being less about attacking and more about movility. and maybe nonlethal things.
A monk who runs around constantly dodging stuff and doing nothing else would get boring after awhile. It works great for TV or movies, but not in a game. Giving them reduced damage is enough to balance out their speed, IMO.

While I like the whirlwind, I dont like the idea of making the monks go into prestige classes that are just slight variations on their existing school.
It's not so much a "slight variation" as it is an "access to greater power". All the wuxia-like supernatural and elemental abilities that I had originally are intended for the PrCs - so people who want to play a nonmagical martial artist can use the base class, and people who want to have monks shooting fire from their hands and calling lightning from the sky can use the PrC.

And where the monks have to pick which ability they want, they should get more opportunities to pick.
You want to give them MORE abilities? What, they don't have enough already? Seriously.

and they should get Grandmaster earlier, and additional rank powers afterwards and before that don't necessarily change your rank
Think about this for a minute. If they get Grandmaster earlier, what's the incentive to stay in the class? That's the whole point of having it be a high-level thing. If the player can get it early (say, 12th level), there's little reason NOT to go PrC or multiclass.

...particularly if you are going to make them specialize into prestige classes(which I think are not a good idea).
I'm not making them specialize. Like I said above, it's unlocking a different kind of power. PrCs as a whole are optional, and the styles granted by these ones in specific are definitely optional, as I said above. I'll write up some preliminary stuff this weekend so you can see.

feats are lighter than a whole PrC, which I think is too much investment and too much deviation from the class. Possibly some feats that allow extra abilities from your school as well, or something like that.
I could see burning a feat to gain an extra style ability. The abilities I want to put into the PrCs, though, would be a bit much for feats. Don't forget, you only get 7 feats over the course of 20 levels.

Oh, speaking of feats... I keep meaning to toss this out, and I keep forgetting. I was thinking about making the bonus feat list specific for each style - say, 7-8 feats for each (they can choose 4). I couldn't really see a Mountain Style monk picking Mobility, or a Sea monk taking Diehard.
 

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