Revision Spotlight (6/17)

[Apok]

That said, I am still not happy with it. I have always though snatch arrows was too specific. What's the point of snatching arrows if you have to have one hand free? (How this is "too cool" other than visually, I will never know.) Finally, this feat could have pulled in things like shield and arrow cutting techniques if it weren't for the silly "hand free" thing.

I can only assume that they were thinking less of "how can we make this feat more generally usefull" and more of "how can we duplicate cool, kung-fu-movie-arrow-catchin' action."

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to deflect an incoming arrow with a shield or a weapon. It would be just as cool and make the feat attractive to a wider variety of fighters.

 

[nikolai]

I'm afraid this is yet another example of wanton feat butchery. Deflect Arrows was never the best feat, the save mechanic was a bit clunky, but automatically nullifying one successful ranged attack a round is a bit much.

It's also just weird that the automaticity is there - so regardless of how good the archer is, or what position the target's in, one arrow gets knocked away. Verisimilitude just goes out the window (see also: Manyshot, Precise Shot). The no similar mechanic for blocking arrows with shields (except for AC) is also a good point.

3.5e's done some good things with feats: I like the new Endurance, Run and Finesse and some of the additions are sensible. But some dodgy stuff has happened, whoever did the editing has got way too carried away.

nikolai.

P.S. What do you lot think of the new Improved Trip. It now:

* gives free attack if trip is successful (at +4 for prone).
* +4 bonus to trip attack.
* negates AoO (which can also be done via Unarmed Strike or using a Tripping weapon).

Compared to (the old) Improved Disarm and (Improved) Sunder it seems a bit much.

 

[mmu1]

I'm afraid this is yet another example of wanton feat butchery. Deflect Arrows was never the best feat, the save mechanic was a bit clunky, but automatically nullifying one successful ranged attack a round is a bit much.

It's also just weird that the automaticity is there - so regardless of how good the archer is, or what position the target's in, one arrow gets knocked away. Verisimilitude just goes out the window (see also: Manyshot, Precise Shot). The no similar mechanic for blocking arrows with shields (except for AC) is also a good point.

Exactly. Your skill here is being opposed by someone else, so the idea that you can automatically suceed regardless of how good a shot your enemy is completely unacceptable within any kind of sane rule framework...

The idea that a character can be completely immune to an enemy's attacks (even if only at low levels) for the price of one feat is absurd.

The fact that it's "just one attack" is not a balancing factor, because at low levels, unless someone has Rapid Shot, it confers immunity against a single enemy with ranged weapon, and at higher levels, the fact that it's automatic lets you nullify the effect of someone's first attack, which is often an almost-automatic hit.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

What do you lot think of the new Improved Trip. It now:

* gives free attack if trip is successful (at +4 for prone).
* +4 bonus to trip attack.
* negates AoO (which can also be done via Unarmed Strike or using a Tripping weapon).

Compared to (the old) Improved Disarm and (Improved) Sunder it seems a bit much.

To drag things even further off topic, do most people allow the "gives an extra attack" type of abilities if the original attack was an AoO? I've seen pretty messed up cases where feat/ability stacking would lead to a person doing up to three attacks off initiative... I was just wondering how most people deal with followup attacks on AoO.

Kahuna burger

 

[smetzger]

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to deflect an incoming arrow with a shield or a weapon. It would be just as cool and make the feat attractive to a wider variety of fighters.

Yeah, I wanna be like Aaragorn.

 

[Number47]

Uh, shields do let you deflect arrows. It's called armor class. Weapons also let you deflect arrows with the appropriate feats, Expertise, Two Weapon Defense.

 

[dlurking]

There is no reason why you shouldn't be able to deflect an incoming arrow with a shield or a weapon. It would be just as cool and make the feat attractive to a wider variety of fighters.

Perhaps with a weapon, but you're supposed to be using that to parry the melee you're in. As for a shield ... that's what the Shield Bonus to your AC is supposed to simulate. At least imho.
-dlurking

 

[aliensex]

The wording of the feat leads me to believe that there is more to it than what was printed. It could be that the mechanics of this are covered in the combat section, such as in the Strike a Weapon topic. It may be that an attack roll is required now (against a good AC).

I doubt its automatic, but if it was, I definately wouldn't be using it that way.

 

[Technik4]

Automatic

I am in favor of a once-per-round automatic arrow deflection at the cost of a feat (in a fairly useless chain of feats, exception: monk). Why?

Well this feat mostly affects the monk. While a fighter could go out of his way to take Deflect Arrows, chances are he won't be bothering with having an empty hand just to deflect 1 arrow a round (even if it is automatic).

The reflex save made it a difficult feat to gauge the use of. I think I had a monk who actually used Deflect Arrows use it twice, and it only worked one time. Compare this to something like Dodge or Toughness and you see that deflect arrows had little mileage going for it.

I am going to reiterate what I stated in another thread: The core rulebooks of D&D are being written with a "base" level of rules in mind, imo, this level is one that a new player could grasp easier. Additional Handbooks like The Complete Warrior will offer more advanced techniques for doing things, as well as more interaction with opposed rolls and such.

Thats just how it looks to me, but I like the new Deflect Arrows better, as others have said, it opens the way for an Improved Deflect Arrows. Personally I would fold Snatch Arrows into Deflect Arrows after a certain BAB (I think SKR suggested this).

Technik

 

[atra2]

Perhaps a different mechanic than Reflex save or automatic?

Perhaps the original flaw in Deflect Arrows was that it did
not take into consideration the skill of the opponent.

IE, there is an equal chance for a monk of a given level (IE,
level 2 or higher) to deflect the arcane archer's arrow of
death, or Chauncey Commoner's xbow bolt at -4 for DEX 2.

In HERO System (AKA Champions) the mechanic is an
opposed check involving offensive combat values. (BAB would
be the same thing as Hero's OCV for our purposes)

If Death Archer's attack roll is a 15, plus another 20 or so
in magic/dex/etc. mods for a net result of 35, Deflect Arrows
might allow the master of Ti Kwon Leep to "attack" an AC
of 35, and if he hits, the arrow is deflected. The new feat of
Snatch Arrows would then say something like "if you hit the
arrow's [effective] AC by 5 or more (or maybe 10 or more) then
you've caught it. Beat AC by 10 (or 20) to throw it back.

(HERO uses point costs instead of feats, but if you were to
translate their Missle Deflection Mechanic, it'd be 1 feat to get
the Deflect Arrows Equivalent, +1 feat per additional thing you
can do. (a feat to catch, a feat to throw, a feat to catch things
larger than arrows, or spell effects, etc.))

Actually, that might be a nice model. Give monks a bunch of
free feats taking them up the deflect arrows chain, such that
while a non-monk would consider deflect and snatch/catch
arrows, only the monk could afford to eventually deflect/dodge
boulders, melf's acid arrow, etc.

Toss in the "attacker's attack roll total is the AC (difficulty class)
the monk must hit (match or exceed) with his attack roll
(deflect skill roll)" and good to go. I'm nowhere near running
a D&D game anytime soon, but even just replacing the reflex
save with an attack roll check would be nice.

Oh, I suppose the monk should get a built-in bonus to the
deflect arrows check, since his BAB suffers compared to fighters.

Perhaps add a fraction of his monk level (like half) to the
Deflect attack roll?