Revision Spotlight (6/17)

[Kai Lord]

Does the new Deflect Arrows feat break established verisimilitude? Hell no. But I might surprise some people when I say, personally, I'm not thrilled with the feat as written.

I get what they were going for, and appreciate it, but the execution of the feat makes it play out like a special "power" more than a unique skill of the user. That doesn't kill verisimilitude because well, lots of guys in D&D have special powers that need to recharge after a round or a day or what have you. But that doesn't match up with the movies the designers wanted to emulate.

He's sooo good that he has perfect accuracy each and every time...but can never deflect two in a round? Not even hasted? Or foregoing his iterative attacks to do nothing else? A fighter with this feat can quadruple the number of attacks he makes in a round as he advances in level, but never, ever, translate his flawless accuracy at deflecting into blocking two arrows?

I think they should have just left "deflecting" as part of the abstraction of Armor Class, and added "catching" as a feat where you spend as many of your attacks as you want to give up in a round to try and grab said numbers of arrows. Make it an opposed attack roll against the archer and prove how badass you are. If your hands are holding a light weapon (like say your hands are full with two arrows you just caught) treat further catches as deflections.

It'd be fast to play out, would look hella cool, could sometimes give you stalemates in one on one fights between an archer and an equivalent Fighter or Monk with the feat but not with automatic success/failure rates for either party, and the guy doing the deflecting doesn't get to be cheap and wail on the archer because he's giving up his attacks to negate the other guy's. That took about five minutes to think up but it seems like it'd be perfectly fair and have an all around cool effect.

 

[coyote6]

It'd be fast to play out, would look hella cool, could sometimes give you stalemates in one on one fights between an archer and an equivalent Fighter or Monk

Not between a regular archer (i.e., some combination of classes with good base attack bonuses) and a monk -- the monk's attack bonus will just be too low for him to compete.

Hasn't changed; just often overlooked.

Actually, doesn't apply to keeping your Dex bonus. The quote specifically talks about being able to flank someone four levels lower than the rogue. Being able to flank is not the same as being able to catch someone flatfooted.

 

[Kai Lord]

Not between a regular archer (i.e., some combination of classes with good base attack bonuses) and a monk -- the monk's attack bonus will just be too low for him to compete.

True enough. Maybe just an Improved Expertise feat that allows you to take an attack penalty on your next round of attacks in exchange for an equivalent AC bonus as a free action would do. Can be used unarmed or with any light weapon. If your AC beats the attack by five or more and you're unarmed, you catch the arrow. Something to that effect.

I don't think the revised feat is unbalanced or verisimilitude breaking...its just a little too static for my liking. Wanna look cool? Spend two feats and you're done. Unlike Manyshot, where you spend the feats but then have to put up or shut up at game time.

 

[brehobit]

You could also keep the Auto Success and then put the additional restriction(s):
Uses up one of your AoO and/or provokes an AoO

If they really wanted to boot Deflect Arrows they should have gotten rid of it and _replaced_ it with Snatch Arrows

I really like this. Perhaps:
Deflect arrows: roll BAB+DEX modifier. Target is 15+enhancment bonus of arrow *2. Futher arrows blocked in the same round count as an AoO.

Or instead of the AoO the DC goes up by 5 or 10 for each arrow after the first.

Mark

 

[Daedrova]

The way you presented that idea was very good Kai Lord, and (upon rethinking) I have to agree that it would seem more sensible that deflection could be done with an AC bonus (expertise-like, or straight thus it could be done with a shield or weapon in hand), while snatching the arrows would require a free hand.
Most people who don't like the feat as shown for 3.5 don’t like the fact that there is not a roll, but I would bet that most of the people who defend it (including myself) really wouldn't mind if there were some (lower DC than the 3.0 version) roll involved.
As I said, it really is not accurate or functional to make it an opposed attack roll, since all arrows (aside from those launched from mighty weapons) will be traveling the same velocity. In addition, that would make this feat worse for monks, better for fighters.
It could made a Dex check (rather than a higher reflex save, making it usable for both fighters and monks) DC 10, and then add to the difficulty against larger weapons and mighty weapons. Perhaps +1 DC to the Dex check per higher size category of the launching weapon over medium-size, and +1 per Str bonus of the mighty weapon? (which would complicate it slightly but ::shrugs:
I do think that adding to the difficulty/and or forgoing a characters next round actions to attempt to snatch additional arrows would be a good as well. Perhaps forgoing you next standard or move equivalent action for an additional attempt at a -5 (or +5 DC) to the Dex check akin to iterative attacks. Or and additional feat:
Improved Snatch arrows
Prerequisites: Dex 17(?), Deflect arrows, Snatch arrows, Combat Reflexes
This feat allows you to snatch multiple arrows in a round, using the same mechanic as describe under the “Snatch arrows” feat (whatever it may be). You may snatch or deflect a number of arrows in a round equal to your Dex modifier. You must still have at least one hand free in order to snatch an arrow, and you may only return one arrow per free hand at the beginning of that round. Once the maximum number of arrows are snatched in this manner, any additional arrows may be deflected using the snatch arrows mechanic (DC)

This would make the ability a little better, but has more requirements (sufficiently higher Dex and two additional feats).
I originally wrote this simpler, just allowing each arrow to be snatched and immediately returned, but that would quite obviously be overpowered.
Let me know what you think.

 

[Jens]

As I said, it really is not accurate or functional to make it an opposed attack roll, since all arrows (aside from those launched from mighty weapons) will be traveling the same velocity. In addition, that would make this feat worse for monks, better for fighters.

Well, some things would be included in a simple and easy fashion by using some sort of opposed roll:
- Range penalties (an arrow from far away should be easier to deflect, right?)
- Magical +'s should make the arrow harder to deflect (imo)

As others have said, automatic resolution is very different from a 95% or 5% chance, you think of it in a different way. The fact that there are other examples of automatic resolution does not, imo, make it any more attractive, it should really only be used as a last resort. (For example, paladins could add their level to fear saves and the shield spell could give a miss chance to magic arrows.)

Why does the opposed roll have to be straight one roll against another? Can't it be modified somehow? What about something like a Reflex save against half the attack roll. Attack rolls rolls increase faster than saves but not twice as fast, so this should make the roll relatively easy to make at all levels, without being automatic.

Actually, attack roll vs. AC is a sort of opposed roll as well (the defender just takes 10). This means that a bonus to AC is affecting an opposed roll. How about +10 to AC against the first arrow (as in replacing the automatic '10' by '20') or simply some bonus to AC against all missile attacks?
... or something ad hoc like adding d20 to the AC against the first arrow, to keep deflection as an 'active' effort.

(This doesn't really belong here, but isn't it odd how defending against 'mundane' attacks such as melee and ranged attacks is passive (the defender takes 10 on his AC opposed roll) while defending against more exotic attacks such as traps, poisons, spells is active (the defender rolls a save as opposed to a fixed DC). I think it is odd.)

 

[Celtavian]

Re

You know one movie that would be screwed up by this new Deflect Arrows feat, The Scorpion King. Memnoch would have lived...hahahahahaha.

I would prefer a save or something for the feat as well, but it is used so rarely in our campaigns that it is a non-factor at the moment.

 

[Daedrova]

Jens: "Well, some things would be included in a simple and easy fashion by using some sort of opposed roll:
- Range penalties (an arrow from far away should be easier to deflect, right?)
- Magical +'s should make the arrow harder to deflect (imo)"

Yes, I dont really disagree with opposed rolls (notice my suggestion for the Dex check), just with setting the DC of the Deflection of the arrow against that Attack roll of the Archer. I did forget to include that Magic arrows should make the arrow harder to deflect. As far as Range penalties are concerened, those deal only with accuracy, and the archer having to compensate for things such as the pull of gravity on the attack... Notice that range penalties do not apply to damage, because the velocity of the arrow does not decrease. The reason range exists in its limiting fashion is because at the velocity that the arrow travels, it can only travel so far before it crashes to the earth by its gravitational pull.

Yes, a roll is different from automatic succes 5% of the time, or one in twenty rolls... (assuming the modifier is significant enough).

The reason I believe that Deflect or Snatch should be a Dex check Rather than a Ref save or Attack roll is that either of the later options make it only viable for either monks, or dex based fighter characters.

Oh, and you roll Reflex saves vs. traps because it is reflexive, not an active defense, such as knowing that you want to get out of the way of the greatsword cutting toward you. Its not a matter of mundane vs. exotic.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

In my opinion, if the ability is cool-- that is, it is cinematic and not something the player will just overlook-- nobody is going to begrudge him ONE roll of the d20.


Wulf

 

[Psion]

Deflect arrows: roll BAB+DEX modifier. Target is 15+enhancment bonus of arrow *2. Futher arrows blocked in the same round count as an AoO.

Problem with this is that by involving BAB, you make it better for the fighter than the monk. Not only that, but you are forcing a bit of tabulation.

I'm all in favor of keeping the existing feat as is, but lowering the DC. That takes care of the "too hard at low levels". Does it make the roll trivial at high levels? Sure, but the 3.5 version makes it automatic at all levels, so I am not seeing the problem.

AC mod would work too.