Valiantheart
First Post
Bard 
Revision Spotlight on Gnomes
- Thread starter thalmin
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Red Baron
First Post
Re: Re: Revision Spotlight on Gnomes
But maybe that's just me... ;-)
Hmm... honestly, I think the real problem with gnomes is that they don't fulfill any known archetype. They're a cross-breed of dwarf and gnome (which are solid fantasy archetypes) at best, it seems, with a magical affinity thrown in willy-nilly, and that's why they've always been (IMO) far more "flavourless" than any half-elf. Maybe the bard favoured class will help to give a little more pizazz to a race that, frankly -- and without exaggeration -- I've never seen played as a PC race in 23 years of gaming.kenjib said:
But maybe that's just me... ;-)
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Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
I'm not particularly excited by these changes either, although I can see it working. Frankly, the archetype of the little playful annoying guy just gets up my butt in a big way, pardon my Freedom.
I tend to see gnomes as more the little secretive watchful guys, an archetype that plays better to druids than to bards. I could deal with a gnomish bard, but I just don't much like it as a character archetype.
To each his own, I guess. I certainly know all about houseruling, and this won't be a difficult one to do.
Daniel
I tend to see gnomes as more the little secretive watchful guys, an archetype that plays better to druids than to bards. I could deal with a gnomish bard, but I just don't much like it as a character archetype.
To each his own, I guess. I certainly know all about houseruling, and this won't be a difficult one to do.
Daniel
Thresher
First Post
Bard?
So we've got midgets that flog stuff and bearded midgets with axes and big-nose midgets with guitars?
Oh well, guess when you Stone to Flesh them they'll be rockin it up around the wizards garden and make it look pretty.
Theres a plot hook for you starvin GM's, the "Garden Gnome Conspirisy" where cut rate merchants have been selling off cheap lawn ornaments and local midget populations have gone into a decline all of a sudden...
...though if your PC's are anything like me they wouldnt give a s***
So we've got midgets that flog stuff and bearded midgets with axes and big-nose midgets with guitars?
Oh well, guess when you Stone to Flesh them they'll be rockin it up around the wizards garden and make it look pretty.
Theres a plot hook for you starvin GM's, the "Garden Gnome Conspirisy" where cut rate merchants have been selling off cheap lawn ornaments and local midget populations have gone into a decline all of a sudden...
...though if your PC's are anything like me they wouldnt give a s***
bardic knowledge
Practical jokes and bardic knowledge don't mix well I think. Neither does talking to burrowing animals and fascinating crowds at taverns.
I don't like the new favored class. Every other favored class fits the stereotype. How many gnomish bards have you ran into in your D&D career? You've encountered lots of dwarven fighters, many 1/2 orc barbarians, droves of halfling rogues and handfulls of elven wizards...how many gnomish bards? (that were not jesters!!!)
Practical jokes and bardic knowledge don't mix well I think. Neither does talking to burrowing animals and fascinating crowds at taverns.
I don't like the new favored class. Every other favored class fits the stereotype. How many gnomish bards have you ran into in your D&D career? You've encountered lots of dwarven fighters, many 1/2 orc barbarians, droves of halfling rogues and handfulls of elven wizards...how many gnomish bards? (that were not jesters!!!)
devoblue
First Post
1e had the illusionist/thief multiclass, only available to to gnomes.
When I was playing Icewind Dale, I had a gnome cleric/thief which I found quite useful and usually no more than 1 level below the fighters. I seem to recall some rule that said that was the only race that could take that combo but I can't find it now.
A gnome has always been half a spellcaster, half a thief - the change to Bard just makes sense for me. I think it is a better fit than illusionist which totally ignores the thief side of the race.
Still, I dont think the solution is a perfect one, and maybe the problem is that the race has always been broken. Assuming a new player has seen/read LOTR (not too unreasonable an assumption really), then they know what an orc is, what a halfling is, that an elf is not a 2' tall winged creature that is seen with fairies and that dwarves don't hang out in groups of seven (although they are all called grumpy). A gnome is a porcelain statue with a red hat and a pot belly that lives in grandmas garden and once went on holidays, sending her photos from around the country. Now with that to work with it is no wonder that there are so few gnomes from new players, this means there is less thinking about gnomes in general and hence less ideas about what to do with them from all of us.
A gnome bard, who likes to drink and sing, has a pot belly, likes to travel, can sneak around and wears a red hat.
When I was playing Icewind Dale, I had a gnome cleric/thief which I found quite useful and usually no more than 1 level below the fighters. I seem to recall some rule that said that was the only race that could take that combo but I can't find it now.
A gnome has always been half a spellcaster, half a thief - the change to Bard just makes sense for me. I think it is a better fit than illusionist which totally ignores the thief side of the race.
Still, I dont think the solution is a perfect one, and maybe the problem is that the race has always been broken. Assuming a new player has seen/read LOTR (not too unreasonable an assumption really), then they know what an orc is, what a halfling is, that an elf is not a 2' tall winged creature that is seen with fairies and that dwarves don't hang out in groups of seven (although they are all called grumpy). A gnome is a porcelain statue with a red hat and a pot belly that lives in grandmas garden and once went on holidays, sending her photos from around the country. Now with that to work with it is no wonder that there are so few gnomes from new players, this means there is less thinking about gnomes in general and hence less ideas about what to do with them from all of us.
A gnome bard, who likes to drink and sing, has a pot belly, likes to travel, can sneak around and wears a red hat.
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RigaMortus
Explorer
I didn't think the Gnome fit the Bard at first either, but the more I think about it, the more I think it does. I've always invisioned Gnomes as pranksters. Making jokes and such. This seems to fit very well with the Perform skill, which is primarily used for the Bard.
I do have to ask though, are there very many illusion spells on the Bard's spell list for a Gnome to take advantage of the +1 DC to illusion spells they will now receive?
I do have to ask though, are there very many illusion spells on the Bard's spell list for a Gnome to take advantage of the +1 DC to illusion spells they will now receive?
Remathilis
Legend
The current bard spell list is 33% illusion, 33% enchantment, 33% useful, 1% lame. Revision should help even more.
Bards work fine for me. Why?
Gnomes are tricksters, commonly using slight of hand, dissappearing, and other roguish skills to perform humourous or deceptive manuvers. Bards have all those skills, + 6 SP.
Gnomes are dabblers in magic, but light-hearted magic of illusions and charms. Bard spells are loaded with them, and more with the revision.
Gnomes and Knowledgeable. Bards have all knowledge skills, plus bardic lore, for "that reminds me off..."
Gnomes revel in merriment. Bards provide merriment.
Besides, there will still be plenty of illusionists gnomes, some even M/C (esp with the revised Arcane Trickster being too tempting to take, or did someone say Mystic Theurge?) but you'll have to make your levels even.
Bards work fine for me. Why?
Gnomes are tricksters, commonly using slight of hand, dissappearing, and other roguish skills to perform humourous or deceptive manuvers. Bards have all those skills, + 6 SP.
Gnomes are dabblers in magic, but light-hearted magic of illusions and charms. Bard spells are loaded with them, and more with the revision.
Gnomes and Knowledgeable. Bards have all knowledge skills, plus bardic lore, for "that reminds me off..."
Gnomes revel in merriment. Bards provide merriment.
Besides, there will still be plenty of illusionists gnomes, some even M/C (esp with the revised Arcane Trickster being too tempting to take, or did someone say Mystic Theurge?) but you'll have to make your levels even.
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RangerWickett
Legend
Me likey. As others have posted, the gnome doesn't have as strong a literary background as elves, halflings, dwarves, and orcs. To me, gnomes represent some sort of half-fey, like a less powerful version of Tom Bombadil. They're nature spirits, and though they don't show themselves very often, at heart they're remarkably flamboyant.
So yes, Bard fits them to a tee.
Of course, I don't use any of this favored class crap, and the gnomes I've seen in my day have only been Wizard (evoker), Psion (metacreationist), a Cleric of the spirits of knowledge and tricksterism, and two Druids. They all had a bit of trickster in them, except for the evoker, who was just a min-maxed wizard during 2nd edition where Gnomes got +2 Int.
I wonder if Gnomes get +2 Charisma now.
Oh, and real quick, while we're on the topic of little people, doesn't it seem just a bit odd that halflings and gnomes only get -2 Str? Shouldn't they get at least -4? I mean, they weigh an eighth as much as a comparable human!
Imagine the biggest, toughest, buffest gnome you could ever imagine. The Ahnahld of gnomes. He weighs, maybe, 60 pounds. Then imagine a fairly strong guy, like the head of a local football team. He weighs probably 200 pounds. Both have a 16 Strength. And you want to tell me that if you both gave them a big whuppin' stick, they'd be hitting equally hard.
I know, I know, it's fantasy and all, but really, getting only -2 Strength doesn't play up the classic "the wee folk are physically weak, so we have to rely on our strong spirits!" motif. I'm tempted to make a Gnomish Bard/Barbarian named Scrappy, with the favored bardic performance method of "Annoyance."
So yes, Bard fits them to a tee.
Of course, I don't use any of this favored class crap, and the gnomes I've seen in my day have only been Wizard (evoker), Psion (metacreationist), a Cleric of the spirits of knowledge and tricksterism, and two Druids. They all had a bit of trickster in them, except for the evoker, who was just a min-maxed wizard during 2nd edition where Gnomes got +2 Int.
I wonder if Gnomes get +2 Charisma now.
Oh, and real quick, while we're on the topic of little people, doesn't it seem just a bit odd that halflings and gnomes only get -2 Str? Shouldn't they get at least -4? I mean, they weigh an eighth as much as a comparable human!
Imagine the biggest, toughest, buffest gnome you could ever imagine. The Ahnahld of gnomes. He weighs, maybe, 60 pounds. Then imagine a fairly strong guy, like the head of a local football team. He weighs probably 200 pounds. Both have a 16 Strength. And you want to tell me that if you both gave them a big whuppin' stick, they'd be hitting equally hard.
I know, I know, it's fantasy and all, but really, getting only -2 Strength doesn't play up the classic "the wee folk are physically weak, so we have to rely on our strong spirits!" motif. I'm tempted to make a Gnomish Bard/Barbarian named Scrappy, with the favored bardic performance method of "Annoyance."
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