[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[d4]

I also wanted to add that the "complete and encyclopedic" comment wasn't a dig...it's just that some people gots it and some peoples don't. I admire those who do.

i realize that. if i do know what the "real" rule is, i'd much rather use that than just make something up. which is why i prefer d20 to more rules-light systems. i'm not afraid of ruling by GM fiat when i need to, but i like to keep it at a minimum.

 

[Wombat]

The biggest things going for D&D D20?

1) Name recognition

2) Availablitity

3) Simplicity of mechanics

Of these three, the third is the most arguable. GURPS and WoD both have simple base mechanics (note I said base mechanics) as well. Equally, both of those systems, as has been seen, are adaptable to a variety of settings; in a lot of ways WotC is scrambling to catch up in that regard.

The D20 system brought me back to D&D, after about 15+ years of ignoring it. I still find it very, very far from being a perfect system (dislike of hit points, armour class, and alignment as presented), but it is much improved from the overly arcane rigimarole of AD&D 2nd ed.

Above all else, however, I found it was easy to get a game of D20 running because it was D&D -- people had heard of it and were willing to give it a go, as opposed to Ars Magica, Blue Planet, or Nobilis, the games I would have preferred to run.

So D20 keeps me in gaming, at least.

 

[Ranger REG]

I can only speak for myself. d20 have a very long history dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG, Dungeons & Dragons (aka Advanced Dungeons & Dragons). Granted, the rules system didn't have a name then, but for me, it was my first RPG, so I pretty much know the rules mechanics by heart. I even followed the game's evolution through 2nd edition, and now 3rd edition. And though I have played other games with different rulesets, including Rolemaster, I always come back to D&D, whose rules have expanded a lot, simply because fans demanded it.

The only way you can improve the game is listen to your fans. [At this time, I won't comment the current status of Wizards' and their ability to listen.]

They adopted the "tools, not rules" approach, so while it is rules-heavy, it is for the DM to decide which rules he is going to actively enforce in his or her own game. Honestly, I prefer a lot of options to choose from, rather than giving me few. Then again, the ruleset does not cover EVERY AND ALL situations that may come up in the game, especially if you got some pretty clever players, so you could say there is some leeway for DMs to make their own rulings.

As for emphasis on rules and less on story, I beg to differ. D&D/d20 can be as much a storytelling game as White Wolf's Storyteller.

 

[Desdichado]

As for emphasis on rules and less on story, I beg to differ. D&D/d20 can be as much a storytelling game as White Wolf's Storyteller.

Indeed. I fail to see how the "storyteller" system actually promotes storytelling; it's all the game fluff that does that, not the system itself. Looked at from an extremely high level skim, storyteller isn't really all that different from d20 anyway -- most games have classes, races and levels, for instance, although they use new arcane terminology to disguise that fact.

 

[Tom Cashel]

So what's your point, both of you?

Of course d20 can be played with as much storytelling emphasis as you want.

But the rules of the Storyteller system (such as they are) specifically state that the driving goal is to tell a good story. The d20 rules--while they are good for story telling--do not have the same emphasis.

 

[Desdichado]

Neither do the storyteller rules. The books that happen to feature the Storyteller system (because they're done by White Wolf) say that, but the rules hardly encourage storytelling any more than any other RPG system.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Look again, and note The Golden Rule. It's in every Storyteller book.

 

[Michael Tree]

How exactly do rules get in the way of roleplaying? I see that tossed around quite a bit, but I have yet to have any explain it to me in a way that makes any sense. Also, compared to what systems does d20 have more rules? Certainly not GURPS, for instance.

Rules can get in the way of roleplaying if time spent on using the game mechanics takes away from time spent on roleplaying. I'll use combat as an example.

The more time a GM has to spend tracking hit points, remembering and applying the rules for the actions the PCs are taking, calculating NPC attacks and damage, and tracking the combat watching for attacks of opportunities and miscellaneous modifiers, the less time he has for thinking up fun dialogue and quips, cool but mechanically meaningless enemy actions, and generally setting the mood for the combat.

The more time a player has to spend tracking their hit points, deciding what game mechanic abilities options to use or activate, and calculating tactical movement, the less time he has to "be" his character, think up good dialogue, and react to the situation as his character might, not as the game mechanics dictate. I tend to be a deep immersive sort of roleplayer, but I find that having to calculate numbers and think in tactical rules yanks me out of character.

This isn't to say that rules automatically do get in the way of roleplaying - many people have great roleplaying with d20 - but rules certainly can get in the way.

As for complexity, d20 isn't Rolemaster, but it is still an extremely complicated game. Sure the "d20 + roll" mechanic is simple, but once you add in the complexities of combat maneuvers, cover and concealment, situational modifiers, initiative actions, precisely defined spell effects, attacks of opportunity, hit-point tracking, effects of different types of damage (ability damage, energy drain, etc), and a myriad of class abilities and feats, it can be bogglingly complicated.

 

[Desdichado]

Most of what you call "complex" is typically done without much thought, in my experience. I also believe d20 is fairly complex "out of game"; during character generation, for example, but not during actual play. During actual play, the "complexity" is typically "roll d20; add your modifier, compare to a target number."

I mean, I guess I see where you're coming from in theory; if you're spending a lot of time looking up rules, then it can get in the way of roleplaying. I'm surprised that someone would find d20 that complex or complicated though. To me, it's always been fairly simple and transparent, which facilitates roleplaying, because you don't need to spend lots of time thinking about the rules.

Also note; your example only covers combat. If you're doing all that much "deep immersion roleplaying" all those complexities you mention rarely even apply anyway.

 

[Psion]

But the rules of the Storyteller system (such as they are) specifically state that the driving goal is to tell a good story. The d20 rules--while they are good for story telling--do not have the same emphasis.

Remember that keeping things moving is always more important than searching through the rulebooks to find the exact details on some point or spending time in long debates over rules decisions. - DMG 3.5 pg. 6

If you really need affirmation in black and white in the rulebooks, there it is. Those that don't need this sort of affirmation don't need to look it up in the first place.