D&D 3E/3.5 Reworking 3e armour; need help!
- Thread starter Terath Ninir
- Start date
New Armor table
I had the same problem you do and had to start over with my own table, but i chose to simplify the armor choices.
Armor Type Armor Bonus MaximumDexterityBonus Threat AC bonus Armor Check Penalty Weight in Pounds ArcaneSpell Failure Gold Piece Value
LIGHT
Light leather 1 +7 0 -0 10 5 10
Leather 2 +6 0 -1 15 10 20
Heavy leather 3 +5 1 -2 20 15 40
MEDIUM
Light Chain 4 +4 1 -2 25 20 100
Chain 5 +3 1 -3 30 25 200
Heavy Chain 6 +2 2 -4 40 30 400
HEAVY
Light Scale 7 +2 2 -5 25 35 1000
Scale 8 +1 2 -6 30 40 2000
Heavy Scale 9 +0 3 -7 35 45 4000
EXOTIC
Light Plate* 10 +2 3 -6 30 40 5000
Plate* 11 +1 3 -7 40 45 7000
Heavy Plate* 12 +0 4 -8 50 50 9000
SHIELDS
Buckler 1 - 0 -1 5 5 20
Light Shield 2 - 1 -2 10 10 40
Heavy Shield 3 - 1 -3 15 15 60
ACCESORIES
Heavy Clothing 1 +3 0 -2 10 5 5
Great Helm** 1 +6 0 -2 5 - 20
Silk Padding 0 - 1 -0 5 - 100
*Exotic Armor (Plate) feat required.**-2 penalty to all vision related skills.
I also added a Threat ac bonus, which helps prevent critical hits.
I had the same problem you do and had to start over with my own table, but i chose to simplify the armor choices.
Armor Type Armor Bonus MaximumDexterityBonus Threat AC bonus Armor Check Penalty Weight in Pounds ArcaneSpell Failure Gold Piece Value
LIGHT
Light leather 1 +7 0 -0 10 5 10
Leather 2 +6 0 -1 15 10 20
Heavy leather 3 +5 1 -2 20 15 40
MEDIUM
Light Chain 4 +4 1 -2 25 20 100
Chain 5 +3 1 -3 30 25 200
Heavy Chain 6 +2 2 -4 40 30 400
HEAVY
Light Scale 7 +2 2 -5 25 35 1000
Scale 8 +1 2 -6 30 40 2000
Heavy Scale 9 +0 3 -7 35 45 4000
EXOTIC
Light Plate* 10 +2 3 -6 30 40 5000
Plate* 11 +1 3 -7 40 45 7000
Heavy Plate* 12 +0 4 -8 50 50 9000
SHIELDS
Buckler 1 - 0 -1 5 5 20
Light Shield 2 - 1 -2 10 10 40
Heavy Shield 3 - 1 -3 15 15 60
ACCESORIES
Heavy Clothing 1 +3 0 -2 10 5 5
Great Helm** 1 +6 0 -2 5 - 20
Silk Padding 0 - 1 -0 5 - 100
*Exotic Armor (Plate) feat required.**-2 penalty to all vision related skills.
I also added a Threat ac bonus, which helps prevent critical hits.
Imperialus
Explorer
One important thing to concider is that armour did follow a good better best evolution. Looking at England alone for example:
Anglo/Saxon period: Chain shirt was king. There was little need for leg protection since horsemen were virtually unknown on the battlefield and battles typically concisted of 2 shield walls bashing each others skulls in untill one broke.
Norman England: Full suits of chain mail were seeing common use. The prevalance of cavelry ment that they needed the leg protection from infantry. Unfortunately the weight and discomfort of 80+ lbs sitting on your shoulders as well as the cost prevented any infantry from wearing it.
100 years war: Transitional armour (the ones with the hounskull bassinets) was the height of technology. Metalworking technology had advanced to the point where metal bits were being added to chain armour protecting the legs and torso. Once again the leg protection points to the need for protecting against the attacks from infantry. This is also where we start seeing infantry equipped with Brigandine and kettle hats. The first time in several hundred years where infantry weren’t simply equipped with what they could scavenge.
War of the Roses: Full suits of round armour were now in common use these as well as Gothic and Milanese armour from the continent were the height of armour technology. Poor old infantry were still typically protected by brigandine however. An interesting aside here is that Milanese armour was actually designed to be worn by footknights. This is largely due to the fact that warfare in Italy did not lend itself well to cavalry so if you want to see what type of armour Fighter Joe is probably wearing look to Milan and the Italian Siege armours for inspiration.
English Civil War: Armour was starting to decline suits of Cuirassier armour were the last effective full suits of armour while many cavalry officers had instead begun wearing simple breastplates. This is actually the first time breastplates that weren’t worked into a larger suit of armour saw any use. At least some of the infantry were more heavily armoured than they ever had been previously wearing pike harnesses while musketeers went the opposite rout and were typically only armoured with a thick leather buffcoat that would protect you from a glancing blow or a musket shot at extreme range.
Sorry I got a little carried away with the history lesson there but what I'm trying to say is that all throughout history there has been a "best" armour and everyone with the means does their utmost to acquire it. There is no way anyone would be caught dead (or as a matter of fact they would be dead) during the War of the Roses for example wearing a suit of chainmail, you may see the occasional suit of transitional armour more than likely a hand me down in a poorer family but by and large everyone who was anyone was wearing full plate. Of course everyone in the world is going to wear Mithral Fullplate if it is within their means but that doesn't mean you can't still have fun with it. Muck around with different armourers, turn it into more of a roleplaying thing than a mechanical perhaps the NPC's who've commissioned their suits from George the Master Armourer would look down their noses at a PC who's armour carries the mark of Joe the village smith even if technically speaking the PC's armour is better (MW or some such). Increadable amounts of prestige was attached to various armourers based on who they've made armour for or how long the armoury has been in business.
Anyhow this has distracted me for too long from a paper due yesterday so I should get back to that.
Anglo/Saxon period: Chain shirt was king. There was little need for leg protection since horsemen were virtually unknown on the battlefield and battles typically concisted of 2 shield walls bashing each others skulls in untill one broke.
Norman England: Full suits of chain mail were seeing common use. The prevalance of cavelry ment that they needed the leg protection from infantry. Unfortunately the weight and discomfort of 80+ lbs sitting on your shoulders as well as the cost prevented any infantry from wearing it.
100 years war: Transitional armour (the ones with the hounskull bassinets) was the height of technology. Metalworking technology had advanced to the point where metal bits were being added to chain armour protecting the legs and torso. Once again the leg protection points to the need for protecting against the attacks from infantry. This is also where we start seeing infantry equipped with Brigandine and kettle hats. The first time in several hundred years where infantry weren’t simply equipped with what they could scavenge.
War of the Roses: Full suits of round armour were now in common use these as well as Gothic and Milanese armour from the continent were the height of armour technology. Poor old infantry were still typically protected by brigandine however. An interesting aside here is that Milanese armour was actually designed to be worn by footknights. This is largely due to the fact that warfare in Italy did not lend itself well to cavalry so if you want to see what type of armour Fighter Joe is probably wearing look to Milan and the Italian Siege armours for inspiration.
English Civil War: Armour was starting to decline suits of Cuirassier armour were the last effective full suits of armour while many cavalry officers had instead begun wearing simple breastplates. This is actually the first time breastplates that weren’t worked into a larger suit of armour saw any use. At least some of the infantry were more heavily armoured than they ever had been previously wearing pike harnesses while musketeers went the opposite rout and were typically only armoured with a thick leather buffcoat that would protect you from a glancing blow or a musket shot at extreme range.
Sorry I got a little carried away with the history lesson there but what I'm trying to say is that all throughout history there has been a "best" armour and everyone with the means does their utmost to acquire it. There is no way anyone would be caught dead (or as a matter of fact they would be dead) during the War of the Roses for example wearing a suit of chainmail, you may see the occasional suit of transitional armour more than likely a hand me down in a poorer family but by and large everyone who was anyone was wearing full plate. Of course everyone in the world is going to wear Mithral Fullplate if it is within their means but that doesn't mean you can't still have fun with it. Muck around with different armourers, turn it into more of a roleplaying thing than a mechanical perhaps the NPC's who've commissioned their suits from George the Master Armourer would look down their noses at a PC who's armour carries the mark of Joe the village smith even if technically speaking the PC's armour is better (MW or some such). Increadable amounts of prestige was attached to various armourers based on who they've made armour for or how long the armoury has been in business.
Anyhow this has distracted me for too long from a paper due yesterday so I should get back to that.
Last edited:
Rhun
First Post
Imperialus said:
While this is true, fantasy armors have to be looked at slightly different. You have to take into account things like mobility and dexterity to dodge attacks, as well as the effects on skill checks and such. Keep in mind that in the world of Dungeons and Dragons, your character is wandering around all day, everyday in his armor...something that was simply not done in medieval times. Historically speaking, heavy armor was only worn when battle was expected.
Spatzimaus
First Post
Based on some of the earlier posts in this thread, I thought of something. Try this one out:
There are three types of material: Hard, Flexible, or Soft. Hard are absolutely rigid materials, Soft are the leather/cloth types of things, and Flexible are the things in between, whether they're chain links, small scales/studs, or hardened leather (Hide).
Every armor uses a Primary type and a Secondary type (except that Soft/None is also an option, for the real wimps). Some ingredients can be used for more than one (metals can be made into chain links, which are Flexible; leathers can be Soft or Flexible, etc.), others can't (Dragon scales are not only Hard, they can only be used for armors where Hard is the primary type). Typically the Primary covers the chest and head, while the Secondary does the rest, but it can also be that the Primary covers the entire body and a small amount of Secondary is added on top or mixed in. That leads to ten combinations, each of which corresponds pretty well to an existing armor:
S/none = Padded
S/S = Leather
S/F = Studded (yes, I know studs aren't flexible, but you use so little that I wouldn't count it as Hard)
F/S = Chain Shirt
S/H = Scale
F/F = Chainmail
H/S = Breastplate
F/H = Banded
H/F = Half-Plate
H/H = Full Plate
So far so good, right? Also add into the mix a bonus/penalty for being Light, Medium, or Heavy armor. That gives 9 variables for 10 data points. Then, using a least-squares regression, I figured out the stats that best fit the book values:
PRIMARY
Soft: AC 1, MaxDEX 8, ACP +0, ASF 5%, Weight 10
Flexible: AC 2, MaxDEX 6, ACP +2, ASF 15%, Weight 20
Hard: AC 4, MaxDEX 6, ACP +3, ASF 15%, Weight 30
SECONDARY
Soft: AC +1, MaxDEX -2, ACP +0, ASF +5%, Weight +5
Flexible: AC +2, MaxDEX -3, ACP +2, ASF +10%, Weight +15
Hard: AC +3, MaxDEX -3, ACP +2, ASF +10%, Weight +20
WEIGHT
Light: no bonus or penalty
Medium: MaxDEX -1, ACP +1, ASF +5%, plus the usual speed penalties
Heavy: AC +1, MaxDEX -2, ACP +2, ASF +10%, plus the usual speed penalties
This changes a few armors; Studded and Chain Shirts are slightly worse than before, Scale and Half-Plate are much better, and most of the others only slightly changed. Chainmail is still inferior in every way to a Breastplate (except that we've raised the BP price to 400), but it at least can be made out of a single type of material instead of mixing and matching.
And there you go. If you use a material which changes the weight category, you can immediately figure out the resulting stats. Then, you can adjust for most exotic materials, by cutting the "book" benefit in half, then add the bonuses for both your Primary and Secondary. I'm rewriting my materials table to fit this system, with the Primary and Secondary bonuses separate (Primary bonuses tend to increase AC, Secondary tend to improve MaxDEX and ACP), but it might not be necessary.
There are three types of material: Hard, Flexible, or Soft. Hard are absolutely rigid materials, Soft are the leather/cloth types of things, and Flexible are the things in between, whether they're chain links, small scales/studs, or hardened leather (Hide).
Every armor uses a Primary type and a Secondary type (except that Soft/None is also an option, for the real wimps). Some ingredients can be used for more than one (metals can be made into chain links, which are Flexible; leathers can be Soft or Flexible, etc.), others can't (Dragon scales are not only Hard, they can only be used for armors where Hard is the primary type). Typically the Primary covers the chest and head, while the Secondary does the rest, but it can also be that the Primary covers the entire body and a small amount of Secondary is added on top or mixed in. That leads to ten combinations, each of which corresponds pretty well to an existing armor:
S/none = Padded
S/S = Leather
S/F = Studded (yes, I know studs aren't flexible, but you use so little that I wouldn't count it as Hard)
F/S = Chain Shirt
S/H = Scale
F/F = Chainmail
H/S = Breastplate
F/H = Banded
H/F = Half-Plate
H/H = Full Plate
So far so good, right? Also add into the mix a bonus/penalty for being Light, Medium, or Heavy armor. That gives 9 variables for 10 data points. Then, using a least-squares regression, I figured out the stats that best fit the book values:
PRIMARY
Soft: AC 1, MaxDEX 8, ACP +0, ASF 5%, Weight 10
Flexible: AC 2, MaxDEX 6, ACP +2, ASF 15%, Weight 20
Hard: AC 4, MaxDEX 6, ACP +3, ASF 15%, Weight 30
SECONDARY
Soft: AC +1, MaxDEX -2, ACP +0, ASF +5%, Weight +5
Flexible: AC +2, MaxDEX -3, ACP +2, ASF +10%, Weight +15
Hard: AC +3, MaxDEX -3, ACP +2, ASF +10%, Weight +20
WEIGHT
Light: no bonus or penalty
Medium: MaxDEX -1, ACP +1, ASF +5%, plus the usual speed penalties
Heavy: AC +1, MaxDEX -2, ACP +2, ASF +10%, plus the usual speed penalties
This changes a few armors; Studded and Chain Shirts are slightly worse than before, Scale and Half-Plate are much better, and most of the others only slightly changed. Chainmail is still inferior in every way to a Breastplate (except that we've raised the BP price to 400), but it at least can be made out of a single type of material instead of mixing and matching.
And there you go. If you use a material which changes the weight category, you can immediately figure out the resulting stats. Then, you can adjust for most exotic materials, by cutting the "book" benefit in half, then add the bonuses for both your Primary and Secondary. I'm rewriting my materials table to fit this system, with the Primary and Secondary bonuses separate (Primary bonuses tend to increase AC, Secondary tend to improve MaxDEX and ACP), but it might not be necessary.
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Rhun said:1) I think your full plate armor is a little too good...at least as far as max dex and armor penalty goes. There would be no reason to use many of the lesser armors. If I interpret your tables the right way, Full Plate with Quilted foundation would give an MDB of +3, and an ACP of -5...I'm not sure there would be a reason to ever wear platemail, or even chainmail, since the benefits are not as good, and the penalties are worse.
I might have to bump those both up, but keep in mind that full plate costs a *minimum* of 1,500. With augmentations by my tables, spider silk quilting would cost another 500 gp, mithral another 3,000 gp, and masterwork a whopping 2,500 gp. That's 7,500 gp before magical augmenatations. I think armour that expensive should be pretty good.
Rhun said:
In my opinion, the only magical bonuses that should stack are magical bows (or other missile weapons) and magical arrows (or missiles). So they would not stack.
Imperialus, I agree about 'one best armour', and in D&D that's clearly Full Plate. D&D basically models the real-world situation round about 1485.
If I have a problem with the RAW it's with a Chain Shirt giving a high-DEX PC better AC than chainmail, splint, banded or half plate! Hence my suggested upping the max DEX listings above.
If I have a problem with the RAW it's with a Chain Shirt giving a high-DEX PC better AC than chainmail, splint, banded or half plate! Hence my suggested upping the max DEX listings above.
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Those are both good ideas. Last night I penciled in pegasus and oliphant leather, but I'm not overly happy with either. I might use dragon for the stronger leather, but I'd really like some creature known for suppleness and high dexterity for the first one. I just have no idea *what* creature.Arkhandus said:
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Cool. Ideas are always welcome.Nifft said:
Oh, and Wolf72, cool looking setup you have there. I've gone off in a different direction, but that has some neat stuff there.
Shieldhaven
Explorer
I would suggest the lowly Darkmantle as your high-dex source of leather. It is a creature with both a good Dex score and a good natural armor bonus, and "darkmantle leather" sounds pretty cool to my ears.
Haven
Haven
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