Rhemoraz CR7?

[IceBear]

That's not what I was saying

I was saying I would use Wilderness Lore for that and not Spot.

If I allowed an opposed Spot vs Hide to detect that a goblin was in a nearby room that the party can't see (to see if they spot signs of its passage from this room to that room), I'm suddenly making search, wilderness lore and track very useless. If there is no line of sight to the target, I'm going to use a different mechanic than opposed Spot vs Hide.

Also, don't confuse intelligence with hunting instinct. If an ice worm was so stupid as to leave obvious signs of its presence to its prey it would soon find itself unable to survive and die of starvation. I mean look at lions. They often force their prey into an ambush. That's centuries of survival instinct at work there, not military intelligence.

No, an ice worm isn't going to be smart enough to cover it's tracks. However, it's also not going to hunt anywhere near where it's left obvious signs of its passage either. Thus, my earlier assumption that it burrowed underground for some distance first before stopping and lying in wait of prey.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Sorry, Axiomatic, I misunderstood.

I proposed a (difficult) listen check to get some sort of warning, but I really like Icebear's Wilderness Lore check better.
A spot check could be some sort of prerequisite for the Wilderness Lore check, if the DM is feeling nasty, though.
But I agree that an Int 5 critter wouldn't hide his tracks.

No prob. I would certainly allow a Wildernes Lore check in this case as well.

For what it is worth, I am fairly convinced that the Remorhaz SHOULD have some better hiding abilties and then be a higher CR.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

That's not what I was saying

I was saying I would use Wilderness Lore for that and not Spot.

If I allowed an opposed Spot vs Hide to detect that a goblin was in a nearby room that the party can't see, I'm suddenly making search, wilderness lore and track very useless. If there is no line of sight to the target, I'm going to use a different mechanic than opposed Spot vs Hide.

Also, don't confuse intelligence with hunting instinct. If an ice worm was so stupid as to leave obvious signs of its presence to its prey it would soon find itself unable to survive and die of starvation. I mean look at lions. They often force their prey into an ambush. That's centuries of survival instinct at work there, not military intelligence.

IceBear

I agree about Wilderness Lore, but not spot. I just don't see burrowing just below the ice to be so subtle that only an outdoorsman would notice that something is up. Wilderness Lore would allow a lot more information, but spot is good enough to alert you to an ambush.

But there is a line of sight to the target. The target beign the thing you spot. In this case, the thing you spot is the disturbed ice.

I am not confusing intelligence with anything. You compare to lions, well, looking in the MM at lions I see that have hide +4 that improves to hide +12 in tall grass or heavy undergrowth. The remorhaz does not have any hide in any form. How does he hunt? Paitence? I don't know. Like I said, maybe WotC just did not think about it enough and shoudl have made this monster tougher than it is. But that is a different debate.

 

[IceBear]

And I would only allow a Wilderness Lore check or a Listen. I wouldn't allow an opposed Spot vs Hide in this case at all as I feel it is the wrong mechanic.

My whole reason for posting on this thread was because it seemed like some DMs were routinely giving two sets of checks for surprise - one before the surprise round, and then a second just as the surprise attack began.

IceBear

 

[IceBear]

Duplicate post

 

[IceBear]

I agree about Wilderness Lore, but not spot. I just don't see burrowing just below the ice to be so subtle that only an outdoorsman would notice that something is up. Wilderness Lore would allow a lot more information, but spot is good enough to alert you to an ambush.

But there is a line of sight to the target. The target beign the thing you spot. In this case, the thing you spot is the disturbed ice.

I am not confusing intelligence with anything. You compare to lions, well, looking in the MM at lions I see that have hide +4 that improves to hide +12 in tall grass or heavy undergrowth. The remorhaz does not have any hide in any form. How does he hunt? Paitence? I don't know. Like I said, maybe WotC just did not think about it enough and shoudl have made this monster tougher than it is. But that is a different debate.

It's not fair to use a Spot check vs it's Hide to detect the burrowing. If you allow that why should anyone take Wilderness Lore and track in your campaign? I'll just keep Spotting signs of his passage. Look, there's a foot print over there, and another, and another.

Also, I know that realism has no place in D&D, but it the ice worm was so bad at waiting in ambush for food, it would be extinct. All the prey animals would learn to avoid these obvious telltale signs of it's passage and avoid it. So, either the ice worm would go extinct, or it would learn to leave false signs to trick its prey into moving to is *real* ambush spot.

I talked about lions in the sense of intelligence. Lions will actually chase their prey towards other hidden lions. That's a pretty nifty trick for something with animal intelligence.

I also don't think it's too much of a stretch that the ice worm hunts by lying in wait. Thus, no movement to give it away.

Anyway, I feel that you're using Spot too much and you probably feel I'm not using Hide enough, but that's what this is boiling down to.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I completely agree with you on the 2 chances to spot point.

I don't see why it is unfair to use Spot in order to spot something. Wilderness Lore would still give a lot more information. (not to mention having many other uses, asking why anyone would take WL based on what I have said so far sees to be a highly strange extrapolation.) But in a fantasy game, simply seeing that something is wrong is eough to get you on alert.

I completely uderstand everything you are saying about lions. But I don't care. The abilties listed in the MM are what were used to establish the CR.

 

[IceBear]

I completely agree with you on the 2 chances to spot point.

I don't see why it is unfair to use Spot in order to spot something. Wilderness Lore would still give a lot more information. (not to mention having many other uses, asking why anyone would take WL based on what I have said so far sees to be a highly strange extrapolation.) But in a fantasy game, simply seeing that something is wrong is eough to get you on alert.

I completely uderstand everything you are saying about lions. But I don't care. The abilties listed in the MM are what were used to establish the CR.

I see the problem - even though this thread is about what CR it should be, I'm not arguing that I don't know what it should be I was arguing against allowing two chances to avoid the surprise and now the mechanic for detecting it

The reason I say that it's unfair to use an OPPOSED Spot vs Hide in cases like this, is because, as you say, some monsters don't have a hide skill but the chances of detecting signs of their passage could be considerably higher (im. That, plus the fact that Wilderness Lore, Track and Search skills are designed for that. A beholder has +7 on Hide. If it passed through the room that the party is currently in earlier and is now listening through the door of a nearby room, would you allow the PCs to make a Spot check against it's Hide to detect that it's on the other side of the door? I don't think so, and that's why I don't think that you should do it here.

I keep using evolution as my argument. If it leaves such obvious signs of it's passage, then it would have learnt to burrow in such a manner as to severely reduce these signs.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I see the problem - even though this thread is about what CR it should be, I'm not arguing that I don't know what it should be I was arguing against allowing two chances to avoid the surprise and now the mechanic for detecting it

As I said, I agree 100%. But you have been stating points that have nothing to do with the double check issue. Nothing I have said has really even touched on that.

The reason I say that it's unfair to use an OPPOSED Spot vs Hide in cases like this, is because, as you say, some monsters don't have a hide skill but the chances of detecting signs of their passage could be considerably higher (im. That, plus the fact that Wilderness Lore, Track and Search skills are designed for that. A beholder has +7 on Hide. If it passed through the room that the party is currently in earlier and is now listening through the door of a nearby room, would you allow the PCs to make a Spot check against it's Hide to detect that it's on the other side of the door? I don't think so, and that's why I don't think that you should do it here.

That does not make it unfair. Comparing the signs of a 20 foot worm burrowing 10 feet underground to signs of passage in general is a stretch. The remorhaz has a special movement ability with special advantages and disadvantages built in. The beholder example does not compare unless the room was full of jello from top to bottom. In which case I think a spot check would easily apply. You seem to be comparing simply seeing disturbed ground to making a track check. I am not saying anything close to that.

I keep using evolution as my argument. If it leaves such obvious signs of it's passage, then it would have learnt to burrow in such a manner as to severely reduce these signs.

So what? The abilties are not in the MM. I have stated more than once now that I would support adding these abilities as a reasonable idea. But no matter how much sense it make, the ability is not in the MM.

 

[Macbrea]

Actually, shouldn't it be impossible for a Rhemoraz to enrage on the first turn?


Watch this scene.

The party walks along. As they get over a point on the glacier a 20ft section of ice suddenly turns to steam. They fall 150ft? This doesn't seem to be quite how the creature is suppose to operate.


The creature first appeared in Module G2 in the bottom of a snow covered rift. It stays perfectly still and attacks the party as they are moving along. It doesn't enrage until they have struck it. At which point it suddenly heats up and drops to the rocky ground belong. Melting a circle about it. You get to fight the creature on wet soggy rock with a snow bank 20ft high around you.

If a creatures exterior heated up to the same temperature as lava while standing on ice. It would probably pass through the ice almost instantly.