Rhemoraz CR7?

[IceBear]

Yes...that's why I wondered in my first example if the ice worm could use a partial charge while burrowing?

A partial charge allows you to move up to your base speed and attack, and burrowing gives a movement of 20ft, so it seems like you could. Then with tremorsense it could detect exactly where someone was standing to focus in on one person.

Probably, the fairest way of doing it was like you said, have it burrow up on the surprise round and start attacking in round #2.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

I'm not completely clear if this addresses your concern or not.....

I get the idea that you think that because the Remorhaz is under the ice it is going to be highly difficult for a L7 party to notice it before the surprise round, and therefore it is fair to assume the party is doomed to being attacked by surprise.

I don't see that as true.

It is a huge creature with a 13 Dex and no ranks in hide.

-8+1+0 = -7 hide check to start with.

I think a creature with zero ranks in hide can not be assumed to be great at hiding. You may not be able to see it, but maybe you can see a stange lump in the snow or an occasional slight shifting.

To assume that the snow above the monster is completely unremarkable from the snow everywhere else gives it an ability that I do not see any basis for in the description.

Give it a +10 circumstance bonus for being under the ice and assume it takes 10 on its hide check. That yields a Spot DC of 13. A party of L7 chars should not be assumed unable to make that check. If they blow it, they are in trouble. But that is part of the creature's CR.

Sorry, if I missed something.

 

[IceBear]

It's hidden 10ft under the ice, how could you see it? I would allow a Wilderness Lore check to notice some signs of it's presence ("Ok, guys, this looks like a good hiding spot for a hunting ice worm, and do you see that slight pattern to the snow over there? When an ice worm burrows underneath, the vibrations leave a pattern something like that"), but without line of sight to it, it's completely concealed. Would you allow a Spot check to see a goblin on the other size of a wall? That goblin might have 0 ranks in Hide too, but the wall makes that irrelevant. Much like the 10ft of ice and snow between the party and the worm makes it irrelevant.

Now, I've made the assumption that the ice worm burrowed underground from a sheltered spot and then dug it's way into the middle of an open area so there isn't a hole in the ice and snow nearby for someone to spot.

Thus, if a Wilderness Lore check came up empty (even if it was successful, I wouldn't let the players know where exactly it was just that it MIGHT be there, but if it did attack there would be no surprise), I would only allow a listen check to hear it - and I assume it's keeping very still like other hunting insects do (and thus, no spotting moving ice and snow).

There was also some optional rule in a Dragon magazine that I liked. They were discussing how hard it would be for a black dragon, that was swimming with only it's eyes showing over the water, to hide from a party. It suggested to use the AC bonus from the amount of cover as a modifier to it's hide check (in the case of the black dragon with 90% cover, that's a +10 circumstance modifier). In the case of the ice worm, it's 100% covered and thus not spotable.

IceBear

 

[Henrix]

Well, Axiomatic, I think we're talking about snow covered glacial type ice here, and that is more than +10 hide.
I'd not allow a spot check through ten or so feet of glacier any more than I allow a spot check to see through a stone wall

 

[Galfridus]

Hm, guess I've been running it wrong too.

What I would have done is give a Listen check to the PCs; those that make it hear the burrowing and get to react. But, as pointed out, if the PCs haven't detected the monster before the surprise round, they can't react based on actions taken during the surprise round.

What I would do now is give the PCs a check to detect the remorhaz before combat (probably Wilderness Lore, as mentioned above). If someone detects it, then the PCs get a chance to hear it approaching and not be surprised (via a Listen check). If no one detects it, then it gets a surprise round.

It seems clear that there are only two cases the remorhaz does fire damage: when something strikes it and when it swallows someone. In a surprise round, it might be able to grab a PC, but it would have to wait until the next round to try a swallow. Isn't this how the rules work?

Lastly, the question of Shifter abuse. Giving a shifter the ability to turn on 10d10 damage at will is a little nasty. It seems to me that this is yet another case of text being brought in from 2nd Edition without really thinking it through. I woud Rule Zero the heat ability to be the remorhaz equivalent of raging: lasts # of rounds based on Con modifier, mental state is affected as with a barbarian rage, fatigued afterward. Makes sense and gives the creature balance, both as a monster and a PC form.

 

[Henrix]

On another note, 10d10 is rather hot.
Wouldn't that remorhaz sink like hot lead through the ice?

 

[Belares]

Sorry Icebear I was not saying you don't get that surprise attack, unless the party somehow dtects the creatures presence. In the instance of the elvin archers it is not the same unless say one of them sneezes or moves, then I can see a listen/spot check. I still think that a spot check should be made anyway due to what I said before msot adventurers are more attuned to what goes on. Hence the high spot/listen checks. The elves have a awesome hide as well as if using cover the chances are much better to surprise the party than say a 10x20 ft. Rhemoraz burrowing quickly through the 10-20 feet of ice. Also I agree that it is if the rhemoraz came up out of the ice enraged that it would melt the area rather quickly and may hamper its movement becuase the ground is not ice anymore.

 

[IceBear]

But what you seem to be failing to understand that burrowing is just a type of movement. If an orc, that has surprised it's opponents can move up to the party on the surprise round without allowing the PCs to respond, so could the ice worm. It is the same thing - Party is surprised, monster moves.

I agree that there should be checks before the surprise round. I'm not saying that it gets an automatic surprise. I'm just saying that I don't think it should be an opposed Spot vs Hide (it's underground, how can you see it through the ice and snow) but I would allow Listen and Wilderness Lore.

The reason I would use Wilderness Lore and not Spot is because you can't actually see the ice worm through the ice and snow. Ah, but I could spot some sign that it's in the area you say. Sure, but that's a Wilderness Lore check not a spot.

IceBear

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Well, Axiomatic, I think we're talking about snow covered glacial type ice here, and that is more than +10 hide.
I'd not allow a spot check through ten or so feet of glacier any more than I allow a spot check to see through a stone wall

See through? I did not say anything about seeing through the ice.

I am not saying the party should get a DC13 spot check to go: "Hey, look guys! It's a Remorhaz under that ice over there."

I am saying that a 20 foot long worm burrowing ten feet below the surface is going to disturb the surface in a notable way. There should be a DC13 spot check to notice the disturbed mounds and/or depressions of ice combined with the signs of the motion of a 20 foot worm ten feet down. Enough to go: "Hey guys! I think something is over there, be careful." Now there is no surprise round.

The creature is Huge, has an INT of 5, has zero ranks in Hide and zero ranks in wilderness lore. There is nothing in the description to imply that its burrow ability does not leave a visible (or at least noticable) impact on the ice around him. Nor is there anything to imply it nows how to cover its tracks (no wilderness lore) or hold perfectly still so as to not cause shifts in the ice above it (no hide skill).

With the abilities actually listed in the MM it is a tough CR7 monster, but CR7 is ok. If you start giving it special invisibility powers that are not listed in the MM, then you are talking about a different monster.

If you want to claim that the Remorhaz should obviously have the ability to hide silently and motionless under the ice and leave no surface indications of his burrowing, fine. I can see that. But all that says is that WotC dropped the ball on the Remorhaz and did not provide it all the abilities it deserves. But they still gave it a fair CR for the abilities they did give it. So if you want to give it an ability that is not present in the MM, the CR listed in the MM is no longer relevant.

 

[Henrix]

Sorry, Axiomatic, I misunderstood.

I proposed a (difficult) listen check to get some sort of warning, but I really like Icebear's Wilderness Lore check better.
A spot check could be some sort of prerequisite for the Wilderness Lore check, if the DM is feeling nasty, though.
But I agree that an Int 5 critter wouldn't hide his tracks.