Rhemoraz CR7?

[Shard O'Glase]

About the ambush, well I guess it depends on how you run surprise rounds. I see it as once the thing decides to move and attack the surprise round has already started so a listen check is a moot point. Similarly if a hidden archer shoots an arrow at the party I don't give them spot checks to see the arrow and therefore not be surprised. To not be surprised they have to notice the opponent before the attack action takes place. Or at least that is how I read the rules. If someone want to say I'm worng and point me in the right direction of the rules that would be appreciated.

As for the Remorhaz being in the right place to attack, and spring out to attack the party. Well that is in the description of the creature. That's how it hunts it burrows and waits for some unlucky victim to walk above it. It doesn't burrow around hunting down food, it gets in a good location probably a path of some sort waits for an elk, polar bear, party of adventurers to walk above it and then it springs up and attacks, and they even phrase it as surprising the target.

Spot and listen checks, well considering my ambush beliefs listen seems tough, something not moving 20' of solid material. I'd have to check the rules but I think ordinary walls add like 10 to the DC, 20' of ice and rock would add at least 15-20 to the dc I would think. Spot checks, I honestly hadn't thought about it, I suppose I could give a spot check to notice a buckling in the ground, and those familiar with burrowing creatures might get a bonus to the dc.

As for the fire in the surprise round, yeah maybe it doesn't get it since it needs to be enraged and they don't defnine enraged.(personally I'm for saying after it gets wounded it is enraged) That would only lower the damage to 115 points of damage still very fatal. Now the swallowing again they don't describe it very well, and you may notice that my 1st post I was asking if anyone knew how it worked. But the bite, and grab happen the same round at least since that is part of improved grab, you get it as a free action the round you bite. So 40 points of damage so far. The swallow looks like it happens right then and there to me from the description, but I could see it taking another action in the next round. If no swallow in one round then 40 points of damage in surprise round. If it gets to swallow in one round then 115 points of damage in the surprise round, and depending on party tactics maybe another 115 with an AoO, and then another 115 when it attacks again in the 1st round.

All in all a very nasty creature if you are not prepared for it. I think the only way I'd throw this at a 7th level party is if this was the adventure, they are sent out to hunt down the remorhaz that is plauging the barbarian tribe/ice wind dale up in these frozen waste lands.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I take into account the creatures intelligence.

It will only rage under certain circumstances.

1. Cornered and attacked.

2. Knocked to half hitpoints and cannot escape easily.

3. Hit with a fire attack

4. Lair threatened or young threatened.

Under a normal ambush the creature is certainly not going to be enraged. One cannot lay in ambush in a rage, the two are mutually exclusive items.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

I take into account the creatures intelligence.

It will only rage under certain circumstances.

1. Cornered and attacked.

2. Knocked to half hitpoints and cannot escape easily.

3. Hit with a fire attack

4. Lair threatened or young threatened.

Under a normal ambush the creature is certainly not going to be enraged. One cannot lay in ambush in a rage, the two are mutually exclusive items.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I agree with DocM.

The remorhaz should not be enraged in the surprise round; for this to be the case makes no sense. Hunting predators are focused and stealthy, not angry.

A situation in which an enraged, super-stealthy remorhaz ambushed the party would be EL 8 or 9 minimum, and IMHO, would constitute some bending of the rules.

In a normal situation, parties get the same tactics as always to defeat a "slugfest-oriented" creature: flying, ranged attacks, and Will-save spells.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I agree with the point that the entire party should get Wilderness Lore, Spot, and Listen checks against this thing. Giving it an automatically successful ambush really boosts the effective encounter level +3.

Compare this thing to a Hill Giant, also CR 7. The Hill Giant has more HPs and can throw rocks, but is really inferior in other respects. Nor would be ambushed by a Hill Giant be so dangerous.

I think the Remorhaz should be CR 8. If the PCs walk on top of it, that would be an effective EL of 11. So iconic 7th-8th level parties should expect deaths. Maybe a 9th level party, too.

BTW, this thing is much worse is the party number is small. With just 4 PCs, a little bad luck can easily result in a TPK.

 

[AuraSeer]

BTW, this thing is much worse is the party number is small. With just 4 PCs, a little bad luck can easily result in a TPK.

But if you have more than 4 PCs, you need to adjust your encounter levels anyway. If you've got 6 people in your 10th-level party, they're as powerful as a canonical 11th-level party. This doesn't adjust XP values; it just means they'll use up less than 20% of their resources on an EL 10 fight.

I find it hard to believe that people are citing the failure of the Monster Manual errata to mention this monster. Seeing as the Monster Manual errata has, as yet, failed to make an appearance ...

::stunned pause::
DoH!
That would have been a much more intelligent response to my co-DM, aka the party rules lawyer. My only excuse is that he brought up this topic when I was suffering from sleep deficit and severe caffeine withdrawal.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

But if you have more than 4 PCs, you need to adjust your encounter levels anyway. If you've got 6 people in your 10th-level party, they're as powerful as a canonical 11th-level party. This doesn't adjust XP values; it just means they'll use up less than 20% of their resources on an EL 10 fight.

Naturally.

6 6th level characters are generally less likely to be TPKed than 4 7th level characters. Not having access to 4th level spells sometimes hurts, but the diversity of skills and additional rolls as well as the added targets means half the party will not be eaten before anyone gets an action. More rolls makes wild swings of luck less likely.

 

[Petrosian]

As for the Remorhaz being in the right place to attack, and spring out to attack the party. Well that is in the description of the creature. That's how it hunts it burrows and waits for some unlucky victim to walk above it. It doesn't burrow around hunting down food, it gets in a good location probably a path of some sort waits for an elk, polar bear, party of adventurers to walk above it and then it springs up and attacks, and they even phrase it as surprising the target.

Yes the desription lists its tactics, the description tells you how it tries to kill its prey. The rules give it no magical ability to automatically get its way.

A good number of other creatures have the same burrow 20' plus tremorsense combo... do all of them automatically gain surprise against every opponent?

no not hardly.

neither does this creature because its description describes it tactics.

of course the Gm chooses what the encounter setup is. he can simplt rule that rhemorazes always get surprise by always making said encounter that way and always making sure the players do not get rolls.

he could do the same thing for fire giants in wheat fields too.

At least, as long as the players pout up with it.

Of course, if he grants fire giants auto-surprise, he might well be on the boards soon enough to fret about the bad fire giant CR.

of course, once we decide that burrow 20 and tremorsense equates to auto-surprise its the umberhulks who might well be kings. A full set of confusion saves on surprise round, umber strikes or chooses to direct its gaze at one who made the first save and then we start the first round withy how many pcs confused and an umber hulk at point blank.

cool.

how off is its CR?

 

[Victim]

How could a character not notice a Huge creature digging up from underneath? You'd think that the major tremors as the creature starts to move would ruin surprise against intelligent beings. Therefore, the surprise round would most likely consist of all the PCs going because of the easy check to notice the problem, and the remorhaz needs to make move action. If it's lucky, it might get a partial charge.

Finally, I'd imagine that a huge creature digging underneath the ground might leave some displaced earth or snow, like Bugs Bunny's tunnels. The creature doesn't dissovle the dirt, doesn't pass straight through, and can't remove the dirt, so it should deform the terrain in some way. Therefore, a wilderness lore check could avoid their ambush points.

 

[Gromm]

I remain convinced* that 10d10 damage is a typo. IMC, I have reduced the remorhaz's heat damage to 1d10, and it now seems about right for a CR7 creature.

(*I've seen people argue that the listed damage is correct, because it isn't mentioned in erratta. My response is to stick my fingers in my ears and sing the "La La I Can't Hear You" song. )

Its always done that much damage. Of course you used to have to be dumb enough to jump on its back to take the damage.
As far as I'm concerned the 10d10 doesn't apply to IT'S attacks, exception being swallowing. Its tough for sure, but not too hard to beat. It should by all rights be about CR 9. Sure its got bad will saves, but so do giants and I don't see them being a low CR from it.
Given its great hide ability (burrowing) and the vast amount of damage it can do, it should be a higher CR (I sent one against a party myself and someone died- he got swallowed).
The problem if I recall is that it only has one attack and therefore has no reason to use just its mouth to try to swallow someone (like most creatures with Imp Grab), so it uses its action to just eat them without the -20 penalty. I could be wrong, but I seem to recall this being the case. Again without my books handy.