Rich Baker says a little on paragon adventure(s)

Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, for character levels 10-14. The whole adventure takes place in other planes, mostly the 66th layer of the Abyss, and at the end you kill the goddess Lolth.

Paragon or epic?
 

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Azgulor said:
I had heard that this aspect of D&D was going to be amplified but I was hoping it wouldn't be the case. Sorry, but putting "saving cities or small kingdoms" on par with "jaunting to other planes"? Adventurers go from saving villages to traveling to other planes?

I think you are reading a bit too much into Rich Bakers statement. It appears to me that he is saying that at that range of levels, the general nature of the adventures your going on will change. I am guessing that the Paragon Tier is less about visiting the planes than it is about interacting with villains from those planes.

A 3rd level character is going to be much less powerful than a 8th level character. But I do not think that as soon as you hit level 11, your adventures will go from putting an evil thieves guild out of business to storming the gates of hell. But perhaps instead of a thieves guild led by a Neutral Evil Halfling Rogue, the guild is being led by a Neutral Evil devil who has a motive a bit more complicated than 'steal money from people and kill those who do not give it up'. In any event, I suspect that the planar stuff does not start to become a factor until the mid to upper end of the Paragon tier.

Also, saving a small kingdom may very well be on par with visiting other planes, depending on what your definition of a small kingdom is, and what you are saving it from. Are we talking about a kingdom with 40 000 subjects, or 400 000? Are we talking about an area of 80 square miles, or 300 square miles? 1000 square miles? Relative terms are not very informative. Also, saving a kingdom of 400 000 people from an invading army in the 10's of thousands is one thing. Saving a kingdom of 40 000 from some escaped minor (ie: 6 hd) demons is another.

The more relevant thing to take from Rich Bakers comments, I think, is that by the time you hit the Paragon tier, you are now the kind of hero that people start looking for to solve their problems, and the problems are of a sort that are no longer strictly local in scale. As a player you should no longer simply wander into a tavern and hear about a local crisis in most cases. If you do hear about it in a Tavern, it is probably a week or so of hard travel away, and a pretty bad problem. And if you are there as the crises begins, it is the kind of thing everyone will have heard of. If Orcs raid a nearby farm or town, that is a Heroic problem. If a massive Orcish horde sacks and besiges the king in his own city / castle, that is a Paragon problem.

END COMMUNICATION
 

Doug McCrae said:
Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, for character levels 10-14. The whole adventure takes place in other planes, mostly the 66th layer of the Abyss, and at the end you kill the goddess Lolth.

Paragon or epic?
Epic. (Of course, when converted to 3e - which I did - the "Q" part of GDQ was for around 19th level+ adventurers.)

But a "brief" "jaunt" to a different plane (notably a 4e plane)? I think that's reasonable for the paragon (P11-20) levels.

Not a fan in any way, shape, or form of 4e flavor, but I like Baker's thinking on this particular subject - and that there are specific ideas on what constitutes an "appropriate" goal for characters of x level. (Very little pissed me off more in previous editions adventures where 5th level characters could save a kingdom, while 10th level+ adventures just smacked a few meaningless monsters... especially the former.)
 

Doug McCrae said:
Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, for character levels 10-14. The whole adventure takes place in other planes, mostly the 66th layer of the Abyss, and at the end you kill the goddess Lolth.

Paragon or epic?

For some reason I remember the pre-gens in the D's being higher level.

Tsojcanth had planar travel: it was for charecters 6-10.

High levels in AD&D came in somewhere between 8-10. Those were the name levels. The levels at which charecters, if they ever got to them, often retired. The Gs, which I see as the quintesential examples of AD&D high level play, started at 8th.

I would say for AD&D

1-7: Herioc
8-12: Paragon
13+: Epic

Of course, in later years, people got the idea that AD&D actually supported ongoing play at higher levels (say 15+). It really doesn't.
 

Azgulor said:
Adventurers go from saving villages to traveling to other planes?
OMG! I don't know what that is but it's not D&D!!

PS I don't think they go *directly* from village-saving to planar travelling. There's probably some city saving, wilderness treks, underwater adventures and continent spanning teleports in between.
 

TerraDave said:
Of course, in later years, people got the idea that AD&D actually supported ongoing play at higher levels (say 15+). It really doesn't.
I agree. I think that, like 3e, it stops around 10 aka name level. We had a poll on the the subject (AD&D only) a few months ago and there was no consensus. Many thought the game changed its character at 10th, or just carries on indefinitely without a change.
 

I also think that Heroic, Paragon and Epic strongly represent the powers that will be typically available to a PC party. So when he talks about jaunts to other planes, he means that planar travel options will start appearing on PCs power lists. At Heroic levels, PCs may travel to other planes in adventures, where NPCs provide transport or through predetermined portals. But Paragon may be when PCs get Plane Shift on their spell lists. So Paragon PCs have planar travel at their own discretion. The same may hold true for other powers that change things qualitatively, like scrying, teleportation, time travel and the like.
 

I just hope that I can send Heroic-tier adventurers into the Feywild. Because really, the Feywild sounds sexy to me, and they don't need any sort of special spells to get there.

I assume it won't be much of a problem, but still.
 

Rechan said:
I just hope that I can send Heroic-tier adventurers into the Feywild. Because really, the Feywild sounds sexy to me, and they don't need any sort of special spells to get there.

I assume it won't be much of a problem, but still.
After reading Susanna Clarke's book of short stories set in the world of Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, I have to agree. A Feywild-focused campaign could be really awesome.
 

FourthBear said:
But Paragon may be when PCs get Plane Shift on their spell lists.
I think it will be epic (probably towards the upper end), as it should be. It's the ultimate travel power in the D&D universe.

We know the levels of the following magic items -

* Flying carpet (18th)
* Boots of levitation (13th)
* Rope of climbing (10th)
* slippers of spider climbing (7th)

Which suggests flight will only be achieved at the upper end of paragon. Plane shift > flight so it must be epic.
 

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