Rich Baker says a little on paragon adventure(s)

[Voss]

Q1: Queen of the Demonweb Pits, for character levels 10-14. The whole adventure takes place in other planes, mostly the 66th layer of the Abyss, and at the end you kill the goddess Lolth.

Paragon or epic?

Paragon-ish. But keep in mind that a lot of things were different back in 1e. Monster hit points were a lot lower, for the most part- Lolth had all of 66 hit points, and was more of a demon queen than a goddess.

And a good portion of that adventure was taking place in her spider-shaped space ship as well.

 

[JohnSnow]

I just hope that I can send Heroic-tier adventurers into the Feywild. Because really, the Feywild sounds sexy to me, and they don't need any sort of special spells to get there.

I assume it won't be much of a problem, but still.

I think that at the heroic tier, PCs might cross into the Feywild or Shadowfell, which are connected to the world, but not to any of the other planes. In other words, real planar travel involves going into the Elemental Chaos, the Astral Sea, or the various dominions.

I doubt a jaunt into the Feywild is precisely "safe" for low-level characters, but since Eladrin seem to have a racial ability that allows them to step through it "at-will," I doubt it's beyond the capacity of even 1st-level PCs to reach.

Perhaps by accident...the aforementioned "glade in the woods," for example. Or a magical wardrobe in the castle...

 

[JohnSnow]

After reading Susanna Clarke's book of short stories set in the world of Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell, I have to agree. A Feywild-focused campaign could be really awesome.

Then you might be very happy with this aspect of 4E Whiz, because in Races and Classes they specifically mentioned Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell as one of the inspirations for the Feywild. In addition to the ancient legends about faerie of course...

There's also that little thing about gnomes becoming fey...

 

[ruleslawyer]

Paragon-ish. But keep in mind that a lot of things were different back in 1e. Monster hit points were a lot lower, for the most part- Lolth had all of 66 hit points, and was more of a demon queen than a goddess.

Agreed on Lolth being more super-demon than true deity, but I gotta wonder about Q1 not being "epic" by 1e written module standards (I played some 1e games into the low 20s level-wise, so I doubt homebrew campaigns were quite so restrictive). Until H1 Bloodstone Pass, there were *no* modules higher level than Q1 and Tomb of Horrors. If 4e is designed for playability across levels 1-30, then one should probably analogize play at "epic" levels to playing through Q1.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I also think that Heroic, Paragon and Epic strongly represent the powers that will be typically available to a PC party. So when he talks about jaunts to other planes, he means that planar travel options will start appearing on PCs power lists. At Heroic levels, PCs may travel to other planes in adventures, where NPCs provide transport or through predetermined portals. But Paragon may be when PCs get Plane Shift on their spell lists. So Paragon PCs have planar travel at their own discretion. The same may hold true for other powers that change things qualitatively, like scrying, teleportation, time travel and the like.

No, from my understanding of the concept, it isn't just the powers that are available. It is an entire adventure writing and planning philosophy.

Essentially, the DMG is going to recommend that you don't write any adventures for your Heroic level PCs that involve them stopping anything more than local threats. It will be "save the village", "explore the dungeon", "explore the wilderness", "help the merchant", etc. Then at Paragon tier the PCs move on to regional adventures. It will be "save the kingdom", "find the source of evil that is disrupting trade in the country", "help the king". Then in Epic tier it'll move on to threats like "save the world", "explore the planes", "defeat the gods".

This is so that DMs have a good guideline as to the different "feel" of the 3 campaign types. As the PCs increase in level they should get more well known and by the time they are Paragon tier rumors of their deeds have reached important people and the nature of the things they do changes.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I did a table of adventure locations and likely opposition by level for 3e though it still needs some work:

[B]Level 	[/B][B]Location				[/B][B]Opposition[/B]
Start	Hobbiton, Smallville, Tatooine	
1	My First Dungeon			Rats, bandits, orcs
5	The Big City – Greyhawk, Waterdeep	Emirikol the Chaotic
5	Underwater adventure	
?	The Underdark	
9	Cross the Crystalmists, jungles, 
	the lost city, icy wastes		Giants
9	Magical realms – Hy Breasil, 
	El Dorado, Valley of the Mage, 
	The Moon, Otherworld	
9	Mordor	
9	Other planes				Demons
10-20	Revisit locations			What you couldn’t kill before
20	Realm of the gods			Odin

There's far too much at level 9, which kind of shows the problem of getting plane shift, overland flight and teleport all at the same time. 10-20 is too empty.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Thank god.

Death to small villages.

Death to wandering heroes saving people from random goblin attacks.

Death to trusting villagers who just happen to have enough loot to get saviors in the form of the friendly wandering character.

Hurray! One of the best things I've heard about the design of the campaign that I actually like.

 

[Azgulor]

OMG! I don't know what that is but it's not D&D!!

PS I don't think they go *directly* from village-saving to planar travelling. There's probably some city saving, wilderness treks, underwater adventures and continent spanning teleports in between.

Of course it's D&D. I never said it wasn't D&D. D&D has tended to cater to the high fantasy genre more than any other. I wish planar travel was in the Epic tier, however, and don't equate "jaunts to other planes" with "saving kingdoms" and people are "starting" to hear of you.

It just sounds to me as though 4e will be even more High Fantasy (or over-the-top fantasy) than other editions. Not an unexpected design choice, but one I'm not fond of as most design-related info/advice I've read over the years opine that it's easier to up the magic/high fantasy side than it is to lower it. My personal experiences have borne this theory out as well.

D&D has always had this symptom of "progression" for lack of a better word. Unfortunately, it tends to radically change the game as you enter the next tier. If they were looking to extend the so called "sweet spot" and are reducing the influence of things like long-range teleport, I had hoped the transition between tiers wouldn't be as jarring.

If he had said, "You might see planar travel at the upper reaches of the Paragon tier", I probably wouldn't have thought much of his comments. Maybe it'll still work out to be that way. Only the WotC team knows for sure.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I had hoped the transition between tiers wouldn't be as jarring.

It will be less jarring than 3e for two reasons:

1) 30 levels rather than 20.
2) The power curve is being stretched out at both ends. Low levels will be stronger (3*hp at 1st level) and high levels will be weaker (goodbye wish).

 

[Azgulor]

It will be less jarring than 3e for two reasons:

1) 30 levels rather than 20.
2) The power curve is being stretched out at both ends. Low levels will be stronger (3*hp at 1st level) and high levels will be weaker (goodbye wish).

That's a supposition, not a certainty. While both of the items you listed were stated as design objectives, it doesn't guarantee that the jump between tiers won't be jarring/noticeable. The two design goals you list were addressed to extending the sweet spot. Even if they are trying to smooth out the transition between the tiers, stating the desire to do so doesn't mean it's certain to work out that way.